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MineralMan

(147,445 posts)
53. Good points. The human brain is a completely natural thing.
Wed Nov 14, 2018, 10:50 AM
Nov 2018

It has evolved into a complex-decision making part of our existence. Determinism doesn't really deal with human decision-making at all, really. We can describe the actions of the brain, broadly, in deterministic terms. However, we cannot accurately predict what an individual human brain will decide. The number of variables is impossibly large.

Those who say that we do not make any of our decisions for ourselves, but that they are all explainable through deterministic principles are ignoring the granularity of the human brain in each individual and the complexity of its functions as an additional element of granularity.

No supernatural agent is required for us to have free will, within the boundaries of our limitations. We can, and do, decide on actions, based on completely indeterminable factors. Even working backward from the action, it is impossible to explain exactly how a particular decision was made and why. There are simply too many variables for there to be a direct cause and effect relationship between thought and action.

I once wrote all the content for a massive website for a real estate broker. It included hundreds of pages, each of which had to include a disclaimer paragraph. Due to the idiosyncrasies of the client, he insisted that each of those disclaimers be uniquely written, with no repeated language. It was a stupid request. A boilerplate disclaimer would have been just fine. However, he was the one writing the checks, so I produced over two hundred disclaimer paragraphs, each saying exactly the same thing, but using unique language.

It was an interesting exercise in the use of language. Each new disclaimer required multiple decisions to avoid duplicating the language of previously written ones. Each was organized slightly differently, and explained the information using different words and sentences. Each had to pass muster in terms of legally expressing the disclaimer information. But, guess what? It was easy to do that. I simply wrote them all differently. That's what I do. I'm a writer. My brain can make the thousands upon thousands of decisions needed to produce that result.

We have free will, within the limitations each of us faces. We can decide to do what we choose, within those limits. That does not violate any laws of determinism. Natural variations in results can still function in a deterministic system. It's simply a matter of perspective and what level of granularity you are examining.

I cannot control the length of my life. It will end when it ends. I did not control my birth, nor my genetics. Still, I am a unique individual, and can control my actions through decisions made by the complex system that is my brain. My brain is different from any other brain on the planet in many respects. So, it decides differently.

The only "supernatural" agent involved is my unique personality and life experience. That is where the decisions come from, within the parameters of my limitations. That is free will, but it is limited. Everything has limits.

Huh...sounds like you and guil. ret5hd Nov 2018 #1
Yeah, except that I gave up on creating chat bots years ago. MineralMan Nov 2018 #2
If by free will you mean the ability to make Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #3
No, I don't think so. MineralMan Nov 2018 #4
Uncertainty is just our incomplete understanding. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #8
The coin flip is effectively random, because even if we knew all the factors MineralMan Nov 2018 #9
If it makes you happy to believe in the illusion Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #12
If you punish them, it changes their behavior, it doesn't matter if they have free will or not marylandblue Nov 2018 #20
I think the evidence is that punishment Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #21
No that's not what I meant marylandblue Nov 2018 #23
If there were an indeterministic component to the universe, marylandblue Nov 2018 #10
It wouldn't at the scale at which indeterminism is possible. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #11
So if we can't tell the difference between a deterministic universe and indeterministic one marylandblue Nov 2018 #13
Well not as far as I understand Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #14
What's not demonstrable is that the brain's final state marylandblue Nov 2018 #16
Sure- we don't have a clue how to determine Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #18
My point is that there is no meaningful definition of free will that can be derived from physics marylandblue Nov 2018 #19
Physics invalidates the common free choice Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #22
I am not talking about whatever the "common" definition of free will is marylandblue Nov 2018 #24
Here's a story from my own life that might illustrate: MineralMan Nov 2018 #25
So do you agree that we exist in a universe Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #33
Well, it seems to, as far as we know. MineralMan Nov 2018 #36
Our experiential existence might include Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #38
I disagree. MineralMan Nov 2018 #39
Then please define what you mean by free will. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #34
Your brain has a neurological architecture based on genetics marylandblue Nov 2018 #35
So you are claiming that you have a supernatural Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #37
No, I am claiming that the system is designed to produce marylandblue Nov 2018 #40
Then your system is outside the natural world. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #41
You are jumping to conclusions without evidence marylandblue Nov 2018 #42
A system whose next state is not entirely Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #44
Lot's of systems are not determined by their current state marylandblue Nov 2018 #50
Weather systems operate entirely within Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #51
A bunch of random movements organizes itself into a hurricane marylandblue Nov 2018 #52
Good points. The human brain is a completely natural thing. MineralMan Nov 2018 #53
There is no way to repeat such an experiment, so there is no way to know marylandblue Nov 2018 #17
A few times every year, on a sandspit near Morro Bay, California MineralMan Nov 2018 #5
I've always found this to be incredibly dopey. Red Raider 85 Nov 2018 #6
You are what your brain thinks, really. MineralMan Nov 2018 #7
Cognitive science currently holds the same view. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #15
a few years back my niece had to read Beyond Freedom and Dignity by BF Skinner for her masters degre Kurt V. Nov 2018 #26
I read that book long, long ago. MineralMan Nov 2018 #27
skinner was a humble person. he was asking scientist to treat human behavior as a science. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #28
Skinner has some insights into behavior that can be used MineralMan Nov 2018 #29
He wasn't alone though Kurt V. Nov 2018 #30
Of course not. He still has followers who use his MineralMan Nov 2018 #31
i too find it extremely interesting. peace Kurt V. Nov 2018 #32
Not alone, but in a minority. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #43
the internal dispositional factors don't appear out of thin air. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #45
No one says they do. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #46
right. so where does the internal disposition come from. a lifetime of experiences. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #47
Determinism isn't passe. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #48
yep. my bad on that. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #49
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