Religion

Voltaire2

(14,677 posts)

51. Weather systems operate entirely within

Tue Nov 13, 2018, 05:58 PM

Nov 2018

our understanding of classic physics. The fact that we cannot predict what a systems next state will be is a function of our lack of fully understanding what its current state is. The system remains deterministic despite our ignorance.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

53 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

On the question of free will and pre-determination, [View all] MineralMan Nov 2018 OP

Huh...sounds like you and guil. ret5hd Nov 2018 #1

Yeah, except that I gave up on creating chat bots years ago. MineralMan Nov 2018 #2

If by free will you mean the ability to make Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #3

No, I don't think so. MineralMan Nov 2018 #4

Uncertainty is just our incomplete understanding. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #8

The coin flip is effectively random, because even if we knew all the factors MineralMan Nov 2018 #9

If it makes you happy to believe in the illusion Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #12

If you punish them, it changes their behavior, it doesn't matter if they have free will or not marylandblue Nov 2018 #20

I think the evidence is that punishment Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #21

No that's not what I meant marylandblue Nov 2018 #23

If there were an indeterministic component to the universe, marylandblue Nov 2018 #10

It wouldn't at the scale at which indeterminism is possible. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #11

So if we can't tell the difference between a deterministic universe and indeterministic one marylandblue Nov 2018 #13

Well not as far as I understand Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #14

What's not demonstrable is that the brain's final state marylandblue Nov 2018 #16

Sure- we don't have a clue how to determine Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #18

My point is that there is no meaningful definition of free will that can be derived from physics marylandblue Nov 2018 #19

Physics invalidates the common free choice Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #22

I am not talking about whatever the "common" definition of free will is marylandblue Nov 2018 #24

Here's a story from my own life that might illustrate: MineralMan Nov 2018 #25

So do you agree that we exist in a universe Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #33

Well, it seems to, as far as we know. MineralMan Nov 2018 #36

Our experiential existence might include Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #38

I disagree. MineralMan Nov 2018 #39

Then please define what you mean by free will. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #34

Your brain has a neurological architecture based on genetics marylandblue Nov 2018 #35

So you are claiming that you have a supernatural Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #37

No, I am claiming that the system is designed to produce marylandblue Nov 2018 #40

Then your system is outside the natural world. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #41

You are jumping to conclusions without evidence marylandblue Nov 2018 #42

A system whose next state is not entirely Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #44

Lot's of systems are not determined by their current state marylandblue Nov 2018 #50

Weather systems operate entirely within Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #51

A bunch of random movements organizes itself into a hurricane marylandblue Nov 2018 #52

Good points. The human brain is a completely natural thing. MineralMan Nov 2018 #53

There is no way to repeat such an experiment, so there is no way to know marylandblue Nov 2018 #17

A few times every year, on a sandspit near Morro Bay, California MineralMan Nov 2018 #5

I've always found this to be incredibly dopey. Red Raider 85 Nov 2018 #6

You are what your brain thinks, really. MineralMan Nov 2018 #7

Cognitive science currently holds the same view. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #15

a few years back my niece had to read Beyond Freedom and Dignity by BF Skinner for her masters degre Kurt V. Nov 2018 #26

I read that book long, long ago. MineralMan Nov 2018 #27

skinner was a humble person. he was asking scientist to treat human behavior as a science. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #28

Skinner has some insights into behavior that can be used MineralMan Nov 2018 #29

He wasn't alone though Kurt V. Nov 2018 #30

Of course not. He still has followers who use his MineralMan Nov 2018 #31

i too find it extremely interesting. peace Kurt V. Nov 2018 #32

Not alone, but in a minority. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #43

the internal dispositional factors don't appear out of thin air. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #45

No one says they do. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #46

right. so where does the internal disposition come from. a lifetime of experiences. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #47

Determinism isn't passe. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #48

yep. my bad on that. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #49