Religion

Voltaire2

(14,677 posts)

8. Uncertainty is just our incomplete understanding.

Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:00 PM

Nov 2018

A coin flip, for example, is “random” to us only because we do not have enough information to know which way the coin will land. With complete information the flip is entirely predictable. It has to be. That is the way the physical universe works.

If you want to invoke quantum scale indeterminism to claim that the universe is not deterministic, that is fine, but changes nothing much with respect to free choice by humans. We don’t operate at photon scales.

Again you would have to propose that you contain a supernatural component unconstrained by physics to support the “free choice” definition of free will. Otherwise your Brain is just another part of the universe operating within the same physical rules as all other objects.

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On the question of free will and pre-determination, [View all] MineralMan Nov 2018 OP

Huh...sounds like you and guil. ret5hd Nov 2018 #1

Yeah, except that I gave up on creating chat bots years ago. MineralMan Nov 2018 #2

If by free will you mean the ability to make Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #3

No, I don't think so. MineralMan Nov 2018 #4

Uncertainty is just our incomplete understanding. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #8

The coin flip is effectively random, because even if we knew all the factors MineralMan Nov 2018 #9

If it makes you happy to believe in the illusion Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #12

If you punish them, it changes their behavior, it doesn't matter if they have free will or not marylandblue Nov 2018 #20

I think the evidence is that punishment Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #21

No that's not what I meant marylandblue Nov 2018 #23

If there were an indeterministic component to the universe, marylandblue Nov 2018 #10

It wouldn't at the scale at which indeterminism is possible. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #11

So if we can't tell the difference between a deterministic universe and indeterministic one marylandblue Nov 2018 #13

Well not as far as I understand Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #14

What's not demonstrable is that the brain's final state marylandblue Nov 2018 #16

Sure- we don't have a clue how to determine Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #18

My point is that there is no meaningful definition of free will that can be derived from physics marylandblue Nov 2018 #19

Physics invalidates the common free choice Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #22

I am not talking about whatever the "common" definition of free will is marylandblue Nov 2018 #24

Here's a story from my own life that might illustrate: MineralMan Nov 2018 #25

So do you agree that we exist in a universe Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #33

Well, it seems to, as far as we know. MineralMan Nov 2018 #36

Our experiential existence might include Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #38

I disagree. MineralMan Nov 2018 #39

Then please define what you mean by free will. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #34

Your brain has a neurological architecture based on genetics marylandblue Nov 2018 #35

So you are claiming that you have a supernatural Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #37

No, I am claiming that the system is designed to produce marylandblue Nov 2018 #40

Then your system is outside the natural world. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #41

You are jumping to conclusions without evidence marylandblue Nov 2018 #42

A system whose next state is not entirely Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #44

Lot's of systems are not determined by their current state marylandblue Nov 2018 #50

Weather systems operate entirely within Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #51

A bunch of random movements organizes itself into a hurricane marylandblue Nov 2018 #52

Good points. The human brain is a completely natural thing. MineralMan Nov 2018 #53

There is no way to repeat such an experiment, so there is no way to know marylandblue Nov 2018 #17

A few times every year, on a sandspit near Morro Bay, California MineralMan Nov 2018 #5

I've always found this to be incredibly dopey. Red Raider 85 Nov 2018 #6

You are what your brain thinks, really. MineralMan Nov 2018 #7

Cognitive science currently holds the same view. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #15

a few years back my niece had to read Beyond Freedom and Dignity by BF Skinner for her masters degre Kurt V. Nov 2018 #26

I read that book long, long ago. MineralMan Nov 2018 #27

skinner was a humble person. he was asking scientist to treat human behavior as a science. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #28

Skinner has some insights into behavior that can be used MineralMan Nov 2018 #29

He wasn't alone though Kurt V. Nov 2018 #30

Of course not. He still has followers who use his MineralMan Nov 2018 #31

i too find it extremely interesting. peace Kurt V. Nov 2018 #32

Not alone, but in a minority. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #43

the internal dispositional factors don't appear out of thin air. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #45

No one says they do. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #46

right. so where does the internal disposition come from. a lifetime of experiences. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #47

Determinism isn't passe. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #48

yep. my bad on that. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #49