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Religion

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MineralMan

(147,386 posts)
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 12:21 PM Nov 2018

On the question of free will and pre-determination, [View all]

it's easy to look at decisions we make and attribute many of them to semi-automatic functions controlled by a wide range of biases and other influences. However, such decisions are not the only ones we make. Yes, much of what we do is handled by parts of the brain that are simply reacting to stimuli and making virtually automatic choices without rational consideration.

However, we also face many decisions that cannot be decided by our brain's primitive limbic system. Here's a very simple example. You are invited to a business lunch, which takes you to an Ethiopian restaurant. There is one of those here in St. Paul, MN, and I was actually invited to a business lunch there. I had never been to a restaurant that serves that cuisine, nor did I know where we would be going. So, there I was, confronted with a menu that was completely unfamiliar to me.

I scanned the menu, noted what the basic ingredients were for the various options. But I was unfamiliar with how those dishes were prepared or seasoned. I could have asked the waiter or the person who invited me, but I decided to choose on my own. So, I did. Not at random, of course, but by comparing the main ingredients of the dishes. I made my choices. I'm a fairly adventurous eater, and enjoyed my lunch. My brain was not familiar with the options. I did not even recognize the names of the dishes on the menu. I ordered after thinking about ingredients and took my chances on the preparation and seasonings.

A small decision? Yes. But one made without reference to previous knowledge.

This example explains why artificial intelligence systems do not function like our brains. I worked for a couple of years developing a chat bot, inspired by the Turing Test. At the time, the technology was limited, so I limited my experiment to handle a specific situation. That chat bot was designed to participate in discussions in a CompuServe forum where operating systems were discussed. Using a database of language related to that subject, the chat bot accepted existing posts in that forum as input, and then used a complex set of algorithms to reply to those posts.

As an experiment, I revealed to some forum members that the poster was a chat bot under development, so as not to be seen as trolling the forum. That also encouraged challenges to its performance. At the time, the battle between Microsoft Windows and IBM's OS/2 were raging. My bot was a Windows advocate.

Over time, the database containing the language elements grew at an almost exponential rate. That was done manually, by me, as the programmer or "creator" of the bot. The algorithms also changed as the experiment continued. Eventually, it got good enough to fool some forum members who did not know that it was a chat bot experiment. However, it never developed to the point that it always performed well. It had no ability to respond to new challenges that it had not been programmed to deal with. It could go on in a thread for a long time, doing just fine, but always failed to react appropriately eventually, and had no way to correct the error. It did not learn on its own, and did not think for itself. It was a collection of algorithms and data. It could decide nothing. It had zero free will.

Further, there was no way to give it that free will. It was a computer program, not a living, thinking being. After about a year, I abandoned the project. By then, if you didn't know it was a bot, it would do a pretty good job of fooling most people. But, it was just a bot. A single question or statement that didn't fit the long list of parameters it could react to would throw it off and leave it unable to respond in any sensible way. That would have always been the case, because it had no way to self-modify or learn. It had no free will.

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Huh...sounds like you and guil. ret5hd Nov 2018 #1
Yeah, except that I gave up on creating chat bots years ago. MineralMan Nov 2018 #2
If by free will you mean the ability to make Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #3
No, I don't think so. MineralMan Nov 2018 #4
Uncertainty is just our incomplete understanding. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #8
The coin flip is effectively random, because even if we knew all the factors MineralMan Nov 2018 #9
If it makes you happy to believe in the illusion Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #12
If you punish them, it changes their behavior, it doesn't matter if they have free will or not marylandblue Nov 2018 #20
I think the evidence is that punishment Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #21
No that's not what I meant marylandblue Nov 2018 #23
If there were an indeterministic component to the universe, marylandblue Nov 2018 #10
It wouldn't at the scale at which indeterminism is possible. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #11
So if we can't tell the difference between a deterministic universe and indeterministic one marylandblue Nov 2018 #13
Well not as far as I understand Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #14
What's not demonstrable is that the brain's final state marylandblue Nov 2018 #16
Sure- we don't have a clue how to determine Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #18
My point is that there is no meaningful definition of free will that can be derived from physics marylandblue Nov 2018 #19
Physics invalidates the common free choice Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #22
I am not talking about whatever the "common" definition of free will is marylandblue Nov 2018 #24
Here's a story from my own life that might illustrate: MineralMan Nov 2018 #25
So do you agree that we exist in a universe Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #33
Well, it seems to, as far as we know. MineralMan Nov 2018 #36
Our experiential existence might include Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #38
I disagree. MineralMan Nov 2018 #39
Then please define what you mean by free will. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #34
Your brain has a neurological architecture based on genetics marylandblue Nov 2018 #35
So you are claiming that you have a supernatural Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #37
No, I am claiming that the system is designed to produce marylandblue Nov 2018 #40
Then your system is outside the natural world. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #41
You are jumping to conclusions without evidence marylandblue Nov 2018 #42
A system whose next state is not entirely Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #44
Lot's of systems are not determined by their current state marylandblue Nov 2018 #50
Weather systems operate entirely within Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #51
A bunch of random movements organizes itself into a hurricane marylandblue Nov 2018 #52
Good points. The human brain is a completely natural thing. MineralMan Nov 2018 #53
There is no way to repeat such an experiment, so there is no way to know marylandblue Nov 2018 #17
A few times every year, on a sandspit near Morro Bay, California MineralMan Nov 2018 #5
I've always found this to be incredibly dopey. Red Raider 85 Nov 2018 #6
You are what your brain thinks, really. MineralMan Nov 2018 #7
Cognitive science currently holds the same view. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #15
a few years back my niece had to read Beyond Freedom and Dignity by BF Skinner for her masters degre Kurt V. Nov 2018 #26
I read that book long, long ago. MineralMan Nov 2018 #27
skinner was a humble person. he was asking scientist to treat human behavior as a science. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #28
Skinner has some insights into behavior that can be used MineralMan Nov 2018 #29
He wasn't alone though Kurt V. Nov 2018 #30
Of course not. He still has followers who use his MineralMan Nov 2018 #31
i too find it extremely interesting. peace Kurt V. Nov 2018 #32
Not alone, but in a minority. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #43
the internal dispositional factors don't appear out of thin air. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #45
No one says they do. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #46
right. so where does the internal disposition come from. a lifetime of experiences. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #47
Determinism isn't passe. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #48
yep. my bad on that. Kurt V. Nov 2018 #49
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