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Major Nikon

(36,877 posts)
38. Interesting you'd think the best examples you could google support this claim
Fri Sep 21, 2018, 02:06 AM
Sep 2018

Jesus wasn't the only charlatan with a messianic claim and those who authored the bible would have been well aware of this. They went to great lengths to establish a messianic claim for Jesus and failed miserably for a number of reasons beyond those you cite.

The OT is referencing a messiah, not Jesus. So if one is convinced going in that Jesus is indeed the legitimate messiah, then OT messianic references become circular logic. The problem here is that early Christians couldn't even manage to convince very many Jews of Jesus' messianic claim, which is why they later decided to deify him knowing full well the messianic claims were weak at best.


The Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:2
So that's why we call him Jesus of Bethlehem, right? Oh wait, no we don't. It's actually Jesus of Nazareth. The bible is conspicuously mum on Jesus' early life, except for his place of birth. Kinda makes you go, hmmm. Early Christians would have been well aware of the OT prophecies, so they penciled in a story about a Bethlehem birth. Problem solved.

The Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10

Selective reading at it's best. The first words of Genesis 49:10 actually says: "The scepter will not depart from Judah". The problem Christians have with using this as proof is the scepter departed from Judah about 6 centuries before Jesus was born and they were subject to foreign rule. Oooopsie!

The Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22:1-31

This is especially comical coming from the one who constantly reminds us the bible is not to be taken literally. Nowhere is this more true than the book of Psalm, and even more comical is it doesn't actually say what you claim even if one goes with the Christian translations. So you might want to do some more research here because you're actually conflating two different frequent Christian messianic claims. Meanwhile the Jewish translation say something completely different.

The Messiah’s life, including His eventual suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man’s tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12
The passage you cite doesn't actually say that, but even if it did once again this version of events don't jive with historical accuracy. The purpose of crucifixion was to deter criminals and rebels. As such the idea was to make it as humiliating and public as possible. Those who were crucified weren't taken down after their death. They were displayed as human lawn ornaments as a statement of deterrence. That was the whole point. As such their corpses were left to rot and be eaten by scavengers, not taken down and buried. So what we really have is another case of the narrative fulfilling the prophecy.

A few other things Christians conveniently ignore is all the ways in which the biblical narrative of Jesus disqualifies his messianic claim. Besides the ones previously mentioned, they tend to ignore the line of succession to King David had been broken by the time of Jesus. They ignore the contradictions cited by different gospels in his line of succession. They ignore that if Mary was indeed impregnated by the holy poltergeist, he couldn't possibly be the heir of King David. They cite Micah 5:2 while ignoring the other parts of Micah's prophecies which weren't fulfilled. They also ignore the most glaring example of disqualification found at the heart of mainstream Christianity. If Jesus was god, he couldn't possibly be the messiah as those two things aren't even remotely synonymous in the OT. Jews do not worship the messiah as this would be a glaring violation of idolatry laws.

I could refer to more, but these are sufficient.
You act as if I haven't heard this circular reasoning before Major Nikon Sep 2018 #1
Oy. I didn't realize I was acting. sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #2
You act as if... that phrase does not mean you Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #3
Not agreeing with that. I can't, of course. So then, shall we begin with your Torah. sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #4
The Jews know the Torah - and don't see Jesus in it. Bretton Garcia Sep 2018 #5
The Rabbis used their own "sly" interpretations marylandblue Sep 2018 #10
I agree Bretton Garcia Sep 2018 #12
All I asked primarily was does the Torah use words referring sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #16
Hard to say. Lots of names like Yahweh; Lord (Adonai) Bretton Garcia Sep 2018 #17
I could see where that may be questioned. How you put it-- sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #18
The texts themselves hint, allude, prevaricate, equivocate, metaphoricalize Bretton Garcia Sep 2018 #20
There's secular 'scholars'; then there's scholarly theologians. sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #21
Both are useful counters to religious theologians Bretton Garcia Sep 2018 #27
That was: scholarly theologians. Theologians who are scholarly. sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #31
Still stands Bretton Garcia Sep 2018 #32
Eastern Orthodox. I'm Slavic Orthodox descent. What is now Slovakia (Carpathian Mtn. Region). sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #33
No of course I don't believe that. Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #6
Religion isn't a text, it's a tradition of interpretation and practice marylandblue Sep 2018 #7
The specific nonsense was a claim about the text. Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #8
But it isn't murderous or intellectually dishonest today marylandblue Sep 2018 #9
Those who build on old murderous directives. .. are "just" the beneficiaries of murder. Bretton Garcia Sep 2018 #13
We are all the beneficiaries of our murderous ancestors marylandblue Sep 2018 #19
Incoming--» sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #22
Your point appears to be that any claim about the Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #35
No, that is not my position marylandblue Sep 2018 #36
No it is just intellectually dishonest and tainted Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #14
I am intelluctuslly dishonest , bufnot particularily tainted perse sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #23
Nothing to do with you. Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #24
It's also true that some bail on discussion around the point serious dialog is offered Major Nikon Sep 2018 #11
O-kay. sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #15
Problem with this article is edhopper Sep 2018 #25
I don't think this saidsimplesimon Sep 2018 #26
Just the 'act' alone of reading the whole of it is a good deal. sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #29
I read some "interesting" replies claiming that Jesus is not found in the OT. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #28
Much more. Thank you, mon frere. eom sprinkleeninow Sep 2018 #30
There were thousands of Jewish martyrs, would be Messiahs, from many tribes. Bretton Garcia Sep 2018 #34
You'd have to be very naive to believe the story wasn't doctored Major Nikon Sep 2018 #40
Are these literal references to the person Jesus, or metaphorical? marylandblue Sep 2018 #37
We all know the book of Psalm should be taken literally Major Nikon Sep 2018 #39
Interesting you'd think the best examples you could google support this claim Major Nikon Sep 2018 #38
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