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progree

(11,580 posts)
22. Well, why can't you turn your will and life over to the care of a tree? (Step 3)
Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:32 AM
Jun 2019

Why can't you pray for knowledge of a tree's will for you, and for the power to carry it out? (Step 11).

Why can't you get ready to have a tree remove all your defects of character? And why can't you humbly ask Him (generic male tree of course) to remove your shortcomings? (Steps 6 and 7).

(Steps with "tree" or whatever thing or concept you wish substituted for the word "God" )

What some people who conflate spirituality with religion find objectionable about AA/NA is the "proselytization" about a prayer-answering favor-dispensing deity -- the word "God" appears 136 times in the first 11 chapters of the Big Book, not counting Him, His, He, Maker, Creator, Employer, Principal, Father, assigner or our roles, giver of our sex powers, provider of our needs, something other than our well-loved A.A. group, no human power, nor any other human being, accomplisher of the humanly impossible, divine, Providence, has all knowledge and power).

And how the Big Book demeans anything human as a higher power .. e.g. to take two of many quotes:

"we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God. Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." - BB p. 98

"This Power has in each case accomplished the miraculous, the humanly impossible." - BB p. 50


And how the Big Book demeans non-believers (agnostics) with these characterizations: "Handicapped By Obstinacy" (p. 48), "prejudiced" and "unreasoning prejudice" (p. 48) "Rather Vain" (p. 49), "No Reasonable Conception Whatever" (p. 49), "Biased And Unreasonable" (p. 51), "Prey To Misery And Depression" (p. 52), "Couldn't Make A Living" (p. 52), "Full of Fear" (p. 52), "Our Ideas Did Not Work" (p. 52), "We Couldn't Quite Step Ashore" (p. 53), "Leaning Too Heavily On Reason" (p. 53), "Abjectly Faithful To The God Of Reason" (p. 54), "Whirling On To A Destiny Of Nothingness" (p. 54), "Fooling Ourselves" (p. 55),

It's not just a handful of people who conflate spirituality with religion. Six out of six of the highest courts -- all just one level below the U.S. Supreme Court -- have found A.A. to be religious in nature -- religious enough that coerced attendance by government constitutes a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. The Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal of one of the U.S. Court of Appeals cases, thus letting the ruling stand.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1144174#post32

It's sad that nobody explained to the courts that since people are free to substitute "tree" or "door knob" or whatever they wish (just so it's not something human), that it suddenly becomes spiritual but not religious.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

one day at a time rampartc Jun 2019 #1
When I started going to meetings, that's what worked for me Rhiannon12866 Jun 2019 #3
good work. rampartc Jun 2019 #4
I wish I could access DU.2 Rhiannon12866 Jun 2019 #9
I know that AA and NA don't work for everybody, TexasTowelie Jun 2019 #2
That's actually where I got stuck - the "faith" component Rhiannon12866 Jun 2019 #6
I don't remember if you told me about your sponsor passing, TexasTowelie Jun 2019 #11
Thank you so much - I miss her every single day. :( Rhiannon12866 Jun 2019 #13
There is a lot of magical thinking/statements around the 12 steps... RockRaven Jun 2019 #5
I agree that making it up as you go along is what can trip beginners up Rhiannon12866 Jun 2019 #7
the final thought expressed there stopdiggin Jun 2019 #8
One thing that I've noticed - talked about it with some friends today Rhiannon12866 Jun 2019 #10
and you have my support 100% stopdiggin Jun 2019 #12
Thanks! Rhiannon12866 Jun 2019 #14
AA is a religious organization. "The higher power" requirement Funtatlaguy Jun 2019 #15
Not at any group that I've been to Rhiannon12866 Jun 2019 #16
Every one I've been to, they recite The Serenity Prayer Funtatlaguy Jun 2019 #21
I know, most do say the Serenity Prayer and some decide to close with the Lord's Prayer Rhiannon12866 Jul 2019 #39
Plenty of atheists in AA. It means a power greater than yourself. JDC Jun 2019 #18
Yep. That's what tell you to find. A tree, a bird, blah blah. Funtatlaguy Jun 2019 #20
Well, why can't you turn your will and life over to the care of a tree? (Step 3) progree Jun 2019 #22
Chapter 5 in the AA Big Book is literally called "How it Works" JDC Jun 2019 #17
We read "How It Works" at every meeting I've ever been to Rhiannon12866 Jun 2019 #19
I know that AA has helped many people Funtatlaguy Jun 2019 #23
Nothing religious about it anywhere I've been, despite what the courts say. Clearly progree Jun 2019 #25
Ummm...#3 is right out of a Baptist hymnal Funtatlaguy Jun 2019 #26
I see it as religion too, but I know I must be mistaken progree Jun 2019 #27
"some are incapable of being honest with themselves, they are the unfortunate ones, they seem to demosincebirth Nov 2019 #40
AA Comatose Sphagetti Jun 2019 #24
It doesn't work for those who don't believe in the Bible. lark Jun 2019 #28
Well, it's worked for me and I'm pretty much an atheist, too. Rhiannon12866 Jun 2019 #30
I'm glad you found a good group that helps you. lark Jun 2019 #31
Your son cannot legally be coerced into a religious program. Many have fought for that right progree Jun 2019 #32
In NE FL courts were still doing this in 2008. lark Jun 2019 #33
Yes, one has to fight these, unfortunately progree Jun 2019 #34
Hopefully my son will stay out of jail, but unfortunately that's not a given. lark Jun 2019 #35
I hope so too. progree Jun 2019 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author happyaccident Jun 2019 #29
The secret: "Keep Coming Back" Iggo Jul 2019 #37
I'm pretty sure that all the As say that! Rhiannon12866 Jul 2019 #38
6 Words for me...Serenity Prayer, Keep Coming Back, Listen Stuart G Nov 2019 #41
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