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iverglas

(38,549 posts)
20. I apologize for derailing the thread a little with my previous post
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 03:22 PM
Feb 2012

but that strikes me as a rather large issue, and starting a new thread on it that would be on display for the world and its dog to see on Latest struck me as a bad idea.


On the original issue raised, much ink has indeed been spilt!

Generally, many feel that women who choose to identify with patriarchal attitudes and definitions of women's concerns gain more by doing that than they stand to lose if they don't.

What they gain could vary widely: dateability ... protection from having to examine the disadvantages they suffer themselves as women and thus possibly lose the benefits of thinking "I'm not one of them" and having to deal with how being oppressed affects their self-image ...

I decided long ago that while I had assets that enabled me to overcome many of the inherent disadvantages of being a woman, I am in fact une femme comme les autres -- an ordinary woman. And I decided that all the young men who said things like "wow, you're not like other women" might be intending it as a compliment, but I had to remember what was really behind it: the notion that women were not smart and competent and independent, and the unfortunate fact that many women act as if they are not smart and competent and independent, whether because they have not been allowed to or they have been taught not to or they have decided doing otherwise is more profitable.

I always hope that at some point, people with attitudes like this will encounter a crisis of cognitive dissonance.

An example, I have found from personal experience, is the good-hearted, well-meaning "pro-lifer" who truly believes that abortion is bad for women and pro-choice feminists are ogres who do not care about women. I've turned a few personally by unwittingly rebutting that notion, e.g. by demonstrating more concern on an internet board for a woman obviously suffering from horrific post-partum depression than all the "pro-lifers" did with their "you must love your baby you awful woman, get on with it and stop complaining". And then we moved on to all the ways that abortion is good for some women, and denying women abortions is really very bad for some women, and that one-time anti-choicer became a bit of a strong advocate for choice.

Because she saw herself as a good person who truly cared about women (and clearly was), she could no longer adhere to an ideology that harms women. It conflicted with her self-image as a good person, so it had to go.

What kind of dissonance would it take for a male-identified woman to come around?

I guess, to start with, she might have to really care about women, and then get tired of sitting on the suitcase full of dissonance because her actions aren't consistent with caring about women.

Another kind might arise more out of plain self-interest. The senior executive fails to get the promotion and can just not deny, no matter how much she has denied to herself and the world that she is une femme comme les autres, that it is because she's a woman, what is she to do?

Sit hard on the suitcase of dissonance and try to keep it from getting out, by whatever means necessary no matter how illogical or self-defeating, or let it all out and let her world and worldview shift as it may? Which will feel better in the long run?

If women really do get more by identifying with men and men's definitions of women, etc., than by taking up the cause against things that genuinely harm women, there isn't likely much one can do.

Rich people really do get more by keeping their money than by giving it away or voting for it to be taxed away -- unless they have a really strong ethical definition of what a good person is and are really attached to their own image of themself as a good person, and as a result can't tolerate the dissonance that being rich and stingy causes them.

As long as some people have more invested in either

- their "me"ness and rejection of shared "woman"ness (my freedom of speech, my freedom to do what I want, you're not the boss of me, I'm not like the others)
or
- the benefits they gain by not identifying with women (more dates, more security, speaking tours and book deals -- whatever is more available to "I'm not a feminist" women than to others)

than in their self-image as a woman who cares about other women, I can't think of much that will persuade them. What would it take to persuade an Ann Coulter or a Margaret Thatcher? A whole lot of money, maybe.

And that leaves not much in the way to talk to them, I guess.

How do you discuss it? For starters, don't refer to people who disagree with you... TheWraith Feb 2012 #1
Excuse me, but this is not a new subject boston bean Feb 2012 #2
are you man or woman. and yes, it matters. i put my gender on profile seabeyond Feb 2012 #6
I think that is a fair question to. boston bean Feb 2012 #9
Amen! lillypaddle Feb 2012 #16
please read the post now pinned at the top of this group iverglas Feb 2012 #17
please read the post now pinned at the top of this group iverglas Feb 2012 #18
I'm just going to start adding little co-host reminders to threads iverglas Feb 2012 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author boston bean Feb 2012 #5
my apologies for causing confusion! iverglas Feb 2012 #7
I just deleted, cause i thought that I had to have been confused. boston bean Feb 2012 #8
i stole your picture. did you see? it says it all. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #11
The one of the women battered and the b word? boston bean Feb 2012 #12
yes. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #14
I'd like to see it too Remember Me Feb 2012 #26
here ya go iverglas Feb 2012 #27
Thank you. That's definitely getting bookmarked and saved. Remember Me Feb 2012 #34
"not quite so tired" me, too.... cause it matters an it is a good subject. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #10
Also, I'm a bit tired too boston bean Feb 2012 #13
This message was self-deleted by its author boston bean Feb 2012 #4
Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #15
I'd like group members to take a look at Feldspar's hidden post iverglas Feb 2012 #19
what is interesting is it is the second gay woman kicked off du, thru our forum, not by us.. seabeyond Feb 2012 #21
Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #22
thank you iverglas Feb 2012 #23
AND THE VENDETTA MARCHES ON - SEE POST 42 BELOW iverglas Feb 2012 #25
post 19 was sent to a jury iverglas Feb 2012 #24
Some one -- or some small group, perhaps -- is having a GREAT DEAL of fun Remember Me Feb 2012 #28
EDITED - so how many here agree with this characterization of this thread and this group? iverglas Feb 2012 #29
EDITED for Gormy Cuss and Neoma Wednesday 2:30 pm (re post 46) iverglas Feb 2012 #30
how goeth the war? iverglas Feb 2012 #31
I've got a suggestion, and it's aimed at everyone, including our vindictive alerter... Violet_Crumble Feb 2012 #40
absolutely violet.... it has got to stop. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #41
Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #42
IMHO, there's not one vindictive alerter, there are many alerters acting in good faith. Gormy Cuss Feb 2012 #46
What's this 'cheering section' stuff? You know what I think would help? redqueen Feb 2012 #47
Cheering sections support only one team. Gormy Cuss Feb 2012 #48
Thanks. redqueen Feb 2012 #49
I apologize for derailing the thread a little with my previous post iverglas Feb 2012 #20
I suspect this is a marketing issue. ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #32
i think i am going to think about your post, lol. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #33
I think your starting assumptions are naïve. laconicsax Feb 2012 #35
thank you for that iverglas Feb 2012 #36
My starting assumptions could be naive, but I lean toward the vocal minority "theory." ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #37
We need to address the root of the problem before we can make any progress. laconicsax Feb 2012 #38
Except perhaps for a few trolls, the FR folks self identify as anti-Democrat. ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #39
I generally adhere to your approach iverglas Feb 2012 #43
I agree with your post, but I would like to add that we ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #44
Should we let the women decide? Remember Me Feb 2012 #50
Feel free to do whatever you wish. nt ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #51
Yeah, well -- Remember Me Feb 2012 #52
To be perfectly honest, I brushed you off because you hurt my feelings. ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #53
I'm glad you won't give up defending feminism maddezmom Feb 2012 #54
Thanks, that means a lot. nt ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #58
Well, it sounds like you have some very good credentials Remember Me Feb 2012 #55
"I invite you to PM me when you're doing the Goddess's work in some thread on DU, will you?" ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #57
Okay Remember Me Feb 2012 #60
I just thought you were telling me to go away with your first reply. ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #61
Your input is wanted Lisa D Feb 2012 #56
Thanks, that means a lot. nt ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #59
I don't mean to be an ass, but I am discussing this with another DUer, ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #45
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