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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
13. It's a waste of time NOT to try and sit down and negotiate.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 03:48 PM
Sep 2016

We've all been taught by the history of this dispute that refusing to negotiate with the existing Palestinian leadership, while continuing to expand the West Bank settlements(settlements that should never have been started in the first place, as Ben-Gurion himself pointed out many times, since they achieve no good that outweighs the harm they cause) can never lead to the emergence of a BETTER Palestinian leadership-and that there will NEVER be a credible Palestinian leadership willing to settle permanently for something short of independence(the years have proved to Palestinians that nothing short of independence can give them any hope of a decent life).

Netanyahu's approach is precisely the tactic tried over and over again by Begin and Shamir (under who Netanyahu served as a diplomat and spokesman for years) throughout the Eighties and early Nineties. They not only refused to accept the necessity of negotiating with the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people, they anathemized (with Labor's support, to be fair) anyone who supported a two-state solution as "anti-Israel" (and often as antisemitic as well). When Netanyahu returned to power after Oslo, he resumed the use of this tactic-humiliating Arafat with the pointless siege of his compound in Ramallah and collectively punishing rank-and-file Palestinians for violence done by the militants. No BETTER Palestinian leadership ever emerged from this, only Hamas. If immiseration and refusal to negotiate, while expanding illegal settlements and collectively immiserating the Palestinian population and simultaneously equating any public dissent from this failed strategy with hatred of Jews has failed to achieve anything at all since 1967, how could staying that failed and discredited course achieve anything different now? Or at least, anything different in a positive way?

The Palestinians can't achieve final military victory. Neither can the Israelis. The only chance there is at all of changing any of this(and change is the ONLY hope) is through negotiations.

Who should the Israeli government sit down with? The people who have the guns. Any agreement end to the conflict must have buy-in from the current armed factions, or it will be useless. It's not possible to invent some other leadership, get that other leadership to sign something, and then expect Fatah and Hamas to just voluntarily stop(and then to expect that other leadership, if it ever came into existence, to either create a new military force just to liquidate Hamas and Fatah with extreme prejudice OR to let the IDF come into newly-"independent" Palestinian territory and stage an epic "mop-up" operation of the sort the same IDF has never been able to come close to achieving under the Occupation).

And if Netanyahu is going to keep demanding that the Palestinian side not bring any preconditions into the talks, then he needs to give up demanding preconditions of his own-it should be enough that Fatah reiterate its existing recognition of the State of Israel and that Fatah simply recognize it in the exact same way Egypt and Jordan recognize it; neither should have to totally abandon any form of RoR(it's enough that they not insist on physical RoR for all descendants of the expellees of '48 and '67); and they shouldn't have to accept NOT getting East Jerusalem as the capital or the preservation of most settlements. If Netanyahu wants actual negotiations, he shouldn't be insisting that Palestinians accept terms for having them that read to them as humiliation and defeat. The negotiations need to start with "parity of esteem", mutual respect, and an acknowledgment that both national communities have deep roots in the same soil.

None of that is asking all that much. None of it harms Israeli security or costs the country any international prestige.

And nothing is safer in leaving things as they are. There is no real security in the safety in the status quo, and certainly nothing worth demonizing everyone who questions it.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

so Abbas is both a terror enabler and a communist! ericson00 Sep 2016 #1
why would this be surprising? Warren Stupidity Sep 2016 #2
more interesting to see who defends this scumbag ericson00 Sep 2016 #3
It's a waste of time trying to discredit Abbas, which is mainly about trying to discredit Fatah. Ken Burch Sep 2016 #7
So who should the Israeli's leftynyc Sep 2016 #11
It's a waste of time NOT to try and sit down and negotiate. Ken Burch Sep 2016 #13
And what would be the point leftynyc Sep 2016 #14
How much can they do to get their house together... Ken Burch Sep 2016 #15
Always making excuses for leaders of Hamas & the PLO, aren't you? shira Sep 2016 #19
They actually haven't made any offers remotely like that. Ken Burch Sep 2016 #21
1937 Peel, 1947 Partition, 1965 Eshkol plan, 1967 Khartoum.... shira Sep 2016 #23
If it was wrong for the Palestinians to reject those, it was equally wrong for the Israelis Ken Burch Sep 2016 #25
You didn't answer why those proposals were rejected. Still waiting.... shira Sep 2016 #27
I don't personally know all the history there, and wasn't one of those who did the rejecting. Ken Burch Sep 2016 #29
Ken, you're clearly in denial - unable to acknowledge easy reality. shira Sep 2016 #31
I'm not anti-Israel. I'm pro-peace. Ken Burch Sep 2016 #32
You can't be pro-peace when you refuse to call out evil for what it is.... shira Sep 2016 #33
Your argument that more Palestinians leftynyc Sep 2016 #30
NY Times also reporting this ericson00 Sep 2016 #4
Why the Abbas KGB ‘revelation’ came out now Little Tich Sep 2016 #5
kill the messenger? All of Abbas' moral authority, not that there was much to begin with, ericson00 Sep 2016 #6
Nothing positive would come of removing Abbas from the leadership, Ken Burch Sep 2016 #8
Criticizing & condemning Abbas, putting pressure on him can only help matters. shira Sep 2016 #17
correction 6chars Sep 2016 #9
the PLO isn't evil. It had to exist. Ken Burch Sep 2016 #16
The PLO still incites, praises, & rewards terror. Their charter still calls for that.... shira Sep 2016 #18
I don't approve of their tactics, but Israeli intransigence is the reason Fatah and Hamas exist. Ken Burch Sep 2016 #20
You don't approve their Jew hatred, rewarding & praising of murder of innocents.... shira Sep 2016 #22
I don't celebrate any of those things you listed and you damn well know it. Ken Burch Sep 2016 #24
Didn't say you did - but those acts, celebrating murder, is pure evil unseen anywhere else.... shira Sep 2016 #28
Maalot 6chars Sep 2016 #26
I don't have your ability to draw definite conclusions from such ambiguous evidence. Sorry. n/t Little Tich Sep 2016 #10
Feel free to list leftynyc Sep 2016 #12
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