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In reply to the discussion: Treasury Department set to phase out the penny [View all]SunSeeker
(56,036 posts)149. Well then you should like Georgetown economist Robert Shapiro's study finding that eliminating the penny hurts the poor.
From his research paper, using economics and mathematics:
VI. The Costs to Consumers of Rounding Cash Transactions to the Nearest Nickel
When Congressman Jim Kolbe proposed the “Currency Overhaul for an Industrious Nation (COIN) Act” in 2006, it directed not only that the Mint stop producing new pennies, but also that all cash transactions would be rounded up or down to the nearest nickel. This approach was also adopted in the program enacted in Canada in 2012. Under The Canadian Economic Action Plan, the Royal Canadian Mint stopped the production and distribution of new pennies on February 4, 2013. While the Canadian penny remained legal tender, merchants were encouraged to round all final cash transactions up or down to the nearest $0.05. This approach was based on the view that Canada could reduce its coin production costs by eliminating new pennies and, since the penny would remain a pricing unit, there would be no negative effects on consumers or the economy. In practice, this approach entails significant, unintended costs.
Congressman Kolbe and the authors of Canada’s program were correct in one respect: retaining the penny for pricing purposes while eliminating it from circulation involves largescale rounding up or rounding down to the nearest nickel on billions of cash transactions. Economists have analyzed the likely distribution of such rounding adjustments, between those rounded up and those rounded down. The leading study examined pricing by a major convenience store chain in 1999 and 2000. Using actual prices, the researcher simulated 1,000, 5,000 and 10,000 different transactions involving purchases of one, two or three items, and found that between 60 percent and 93 percent of those transactions would involve rounding up to the next nickel. As a result, the author concluded that the rounding up and rounding down of all cash transactions to the nearest nickel would create additional costs for U.S. consumers totaling $318 million to $818 million in 2000, or in 2015 dollars, consumer losses of $438 million to $1.13 billion. Even the low estimate of $438 million is more than three times the total cost of producing all new pennies in 2015 ($130.1 million) and more than four times the theoretical production savings from eliminating the penny and shifting the equivalent total face value to dimes.
Moreover, this analysis almost certainly understates the additional costs to American consumers from eliminating the penny, because many firms would engage in strategic pricing to increase their revenues by ensuring that more transactions would be rounded up. Economic theory and evidence establish that firms set prices to maximize their profits, and we should expect that merchants dealing with large volumes of cash transactions would approach the elimination of the penny as an opportunity to do that, especially in high-volume, low-margin industries. For example, gasoline stations often price their products in denominations of fractions of one cent and round up the final charge; one study estimated that gasoline providers earn an additional $200 million to $400 million per year from this process.
These consumer costs from rounding up to the nearest nickel would also fall disproportionately on lower-income households. When Canada eliminated its penny, electronic payments with credit cards, debit cards and checks continued to be denominated in pennies, without rounding to the nearest nickel. A study from the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco found that 55 percent of people living in households with annual incomes of less than $25,000 prefer cash to other forms of payment, compared to 10 percent of those living in households with annual incomes of more than $200,000. The study further found that lower-income people use cash for about 57 percent of their purchases, compared to 33 percent of transactions by highincome people. The cost of rounding up is at most $0.02 per transaction, but those costs would accumulate much faster among lower-income people least able to afford it.
This dynamic would also disproportionately affect younger people, as they are more likely to use cash for their purchases as well. The San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank study found that 40 percent of people ages 18 to 24 prefer using cash to other payment methods, compared to 25 percent of those ages 55 to 64 and 65 and older. Furthermore, people ages 18 to 24 use cash for about 48 percent of their purchases, compared to 40 percent of the purchases made by people ages 55 to 64 and 36 percent of purchases made by people ages 65 and older.
Given these dynamics, it is also likely that some merchants would restrict electronic payments, especially in high-volume, low-margin businesses. Under current law and regulation, merchants can set a $10 minimum for credit card transactions, but minimums are not permitted for debit card transactions. In practice, many merchants do apply minimums to debit card purchases: a survey by the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond of 420 merchants across 26 different sectors found that 29 percent of them used debit card minimums. Since eliminating the penny would increase the potential profits from cash transactions, it also would likely increase merchants’ use of restrictions on electronic payments to avoid cash, and thereby reduce the economic benefits associated with such payments.
https://pennies.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Economics-of-Eliminating-the-US-Penny-August-2017-docx-c.pdf
Dr. Shapiro is a Senior Policy Fellow of the Georgetown University McDonough School of Business. He also served as the principal economic advisor to Bill Clinton in his 1991-1992 presidential campaign and as an economic advisor to the campaigns of Al Gore, Jr., John Kerry and Barack Obama. Dr. Shapiro has been a Fellow of Harvard University, the Brookings Institution, and the National Bureau of Economic Research. He holds a Ph.D. and M.A. from Harvard University, an A.B. from the University of Chicago and a M.Sc. from the London School of Economics and Political Science.
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Noooooo, I love pennies and used to have several of those folding blue collector books of them (lost in a move)...
wcmagumba
May 22
#1
"And if you tried to round down it would be considered theft or shoplifting."
stopdiggin
May 22
#112
No. Which is why I oppose getting rid of pennies when there is no law in place requiring rounding up AND down.
SunSeeker
May 23
#141
this is an opinion piece (not sourced to the Fed, the CBO, nor any other recognized 'authority' )
stopdiggin
May 24
#146
The research by Penn State economist Ray Lombra, and more recently by Georgetown fellow Robert Shapiro are not opinion.
SunSeeker
May 24
#147
Wrong. The rounding in Canada is mandated by law and consumers and merchants love it. It's neutral.
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#35
Eliminating healthcare has nothing to do with eliminating the penalty. The poor would lose no pennies on bread
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#89
The law that would be required to eliminate the penny would have to be proposed, passed and enacted. . . . nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#96
The Bill regarding elimination of the penny was introduced in the House in February of this year
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#110
Here is the bill for the proposed law. Yes, it includes rounding in both directions, as is expected and sensible.
thesquanderer
May 22
#116
That proposal would still make people pay 5 cents for anything that costs 1-4 cents. But better than no law.
SunSeeker
May 23
#119
There will probaby be nothing in a store priced to allow people to round down if such a law passed.
SunSeeker
May 24
#148
Of course many prices round up. But generally things are just as likely to round down, so it works out even.
thesquanderer
May 25
#150
Rounding does not "work out even" in actual practice; the total is most often rounded up.
SunSeeker
May 25
#151
re: Dollar Tree's $1.25 w/ sales tax $1.37, rounding to $1.40? No, $1.37 rounds to $1.35.
thesquanderer
May 25
#152
It rounds to $1.40 with no rounding law in place, which is the US situation now.
SunSeeker
May 25
#153
It's a Trump sycophant majority who is cutting Medicaid. You think they'll get right on that rounding legislation?
SunSeeker
May 25
#157
No. It does not work that way. Nonsense. The law in Canada mandates rounding, which balances out
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#34
I never claimed the US had such a law. We are discussing the proposal to eliminate the penny.
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#94
Healthcare has nothing to do with eliminating the penny. The poor won't lose 4 cents on bread
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#100
Eliminating the penny is much simpler than ANY of those. Obviously. . . . nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 23
#125
Yes, as you say. It balances out, it's automatic in cash register, which is told cash or card
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#36
absolutely not. the sales tax figure remains - 11 cents (which is of course bundled into your purchase price)
stopdiggin
May 22
#20
No. Bill added up, tax computed, final amount rounded plus/minus to 5 cents not ten, and only if cash.
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#37
When I was in Germany 40 years ago there wasn't a lot of US coin change around for the PX.
Jacson6
May 22
#74
Not a problem, no complication. Half the time the customer's bill is rounded down, the other half rounded up
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#33
When Nixon told the nation to stop hoarding pennies, my wife began hoarding them in earnest.
Bo Zarts
May 22
#4
ONLY on cash purchases. and, even there, on any purchase greater than we'll say 2 or 3 dollars
stopdiggin
May 22
#25
The lack of concern for the poor who do not and will not have the access to credit cards, debit cards,
hlthe2b
May 22
#26
It's neutral. Half the time it rounds down; other half time rounds up. Canadians are happy with the move years ago. . nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#30
There is still a cash economy that is hard for many to remember--for the poorest among us.
hlthe2b
May 22
#39
It's on the bill. The poorest in Canada have no problem with it. It's neutral, by law and automatic in the register. nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#40
This isn't Canada. And our "conservatives" are in no way comparable or even rational as your worst.
hlthe2b
May 22
#41
US cash registers work the same as Canadian. Probably made and programmed in US. And DONT SMEAR ME
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#46
Cash registers ring up the prices the owner charges. THis is idiotic, Bernard. I thought you had compassion.
hlthe2b
May 22
#48
Look, I hate what Trump's policies are doing to Canadian-American relationships, but then you post this?
hlthe2b
May 22
#57
This thread is about eliminating the penny. Dragging irrelevant policies into the discussion is a distraction.
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#68
"Negligible" to you and I who are so little affected-not so much for the "cash economy." I wish we still had Bobbolink
hlthe2b
May 22
#38
How about you stop using Republicon naming of the Big Bum Bill, which this has NOTHING to do with.
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#49
It is additive. Just like tariffs and every single policy in that bill that will decimate the poor.
hlthe2b
May 22
#51
It is not additive. You can't prove that. You haven't even tried to prove that. It is neutral
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#60
Says the Canadian who despite all of DU bemoaning Trump's damage to US-Canadian relationships
hlthe2b
May 22
#62
You are not worth my time. It was clearly highlighted in your previous posts. BYE.
hlthe2b
May 22
#66
Should your personal attack be alerted? I'm not going to alert your post #66
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#69
I made no personal attack, quite the opposite in ignoring your attacks* and hoping a future will resolve
hlthe2b
May 22
#71
Not NOW you are not. Just posting the same thing over and over and over--ignoring my points & issues.
hlthe2b
May 22
#76
You are the one repeating. I made points that you have not refuted. You repeat points I have refuted.
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#81
You mischaracterize me regarding the poor. When something is neutral to the poor it does NOT discount their plight
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#73
You were the first to mention tariff taxes in posts 38 and 48. . . . nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#83
Count me opposed. Since when is creating currency or coin supposed to be at virtually no cost?
hlthe2b
May 22
#8
It's neutral, it's automatic, Canadians love it, it saves EVERYONE time and bother. You have no points to make. nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#42
This isn't Canada. GO read the Big Beautiful bill and the harms that will come to that population and
hlthe2b
May 22
#45
It is additive. As is a lack of compassion for the impacts (EFFECTS if you prefer) to the poor.
hlthe2b
May 22
#53
Getting rid of the penny is not additive. It is neutral and makes life easier. There are no "additive" effects.
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#63
Repeating your retort that tries so damned hard to reframe my point to your desired argument is so meaningless.
hlthe2b
May 22
#65
You have not been understanding that eliminating the penny is neutral and people like it where it has been done. nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#70
Fine. You have not been understanding of me. You have not understood that I am using economics and mathematics.nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#84
Well then you should like Georgetown economist Robert Shapiro's study finding that eliminating the penny hurts the poor.
SunSeeker
May 25
#149
Thx. The Joys of Being Wrong, the diligence of DUer "SunSeeker", and the Elimination of the Penny
Bernardo de La Paz
May 26
#158
No problem with nickels in Canada. Yes, Canadian Treasury is revenue neutral bc rounding evens out in long run. nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#44
It is entirely neutral for the poor. It rounds out, it is automatic, it is no cost. Experience proves it. . nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#50
I am referring to the proposal of eliminating the penny which would be enacted by a law.
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#87
The OP is about a proposal. The proposal is not shit. It is practical. It would be enacted by law. . . .nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#91
The elimination of the penny would require a law rounding cash transactions. This is obvious.
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#97
Tell that to Trump, who eliminated the penny via social media post, with no law in place. nt
SunSeeker
May 23
#123
Got any more practical suggestions? He did not eliminate it. Be real. . . . nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 23
#126
It's not my suggestion. Trump tweeted he was ending penny production and Treasury complied. All illegal of course.
SunSeeker
May 23
#128
He can order the tide to recede if he likes. That doesn't make it real. A tweet is not an Executive Order.
Bernardo de La Paz
May 23
#131
When I was stationed in Germany the US stopped sending pennies to the base banks.
SeattleVet
May 22
#43
The rounding from the elimination of pennies would be on final transaction, not on prices. . . . nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#111
Irrelevant: "costs more to manufacture than the coin is worth." That would only matter if the coin was only used
FSogol
May 22
#98
these are a few countries that have dropped their equivalent of teh penny
moonshinegnomie
May 22
#106
Nope. Nobody gives or takes pennies, esp not underground. Most were redeemed at banks. . . .nt
Bernardo de La Paz
May 22
#115
They say it costs four cents to make each penny. Why not just offer everyone two cents for every penny they turn in.
twodogsbarking
May 22
#107