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Bernardo de La Paz

(56,554 posts)

87. I am referring to the proposal of eliminating the penny which would be enacted by a law.

Thu May 22, 2025, 03:30 PM

May 22

The presumed (accepted for the sake of the discussion) "completely different attitude" does not mean that corporations and merchants would disobey the law, which would be clear and simple. They do not disobey sales tax laws.

The poor would not lose more cents (not pennies) on transactions than they would gain.
Likewise, the poor would not gain more cents than they would lose.

No. There would be no law on prices.

The law would be, as it is in Canada, that the bill would be added up, tax computed and added and then if it is a credit card transaction, paid to the cent. If it is a cash transaction, the amount is rounded to the nearest 5 cents and that is paid. Over the long run, say more than ten transactions, it evens out. The exact sales tax would be paid to the government. The merchant would not be out on sales tax because the cash transactions even out in the long run and there are thousands, millions, and billions of transactions.

The key is that the rounding is NOT on prices. Only the final cash transaction is rounded.

Companies and merchants would obey the law to the same degree they currently obey sales tax laws, which is so close to perfectly as to be negligibly different.

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Treasury Department set to phase out the penny [View all] BumRushDaShow May 22 OP

Noooooo, I love pennies and used to have several of those folding blue collector books of them (lost in a move)... wcmagumba May 22 #1

The ninnies put us in a pickle Marthe48 May 22 #2

This will complicate sales taxes no end Jilly_in_VA May 22 #3

New Zealand got rid of them in 1990. nilram May 22 #7

So, if my purchase has 11 cents sales tax, I'll have to no_hypocrisy May 22 #11

Standard rounding rules evens it all out [updated] PSPS May 22 #12

Shops will always round UP, not down. This erodes purchasing power. SunSeeker May 22 #17

that hasn't been what happens in other economies stopdiggin May 22 #22

What the fuck are you talking about? People do accept their change in pennies. SunSeeker May 22 #23

no sir. you are wrong on both accounts. stopdiggin May 22 #28

And you sir are wrong on 3 counts. SunSeeker May 22 #85

"And if you tried to round down it would be considered theft or shoplifting." stopdiggin May 22 #112

Go to the grocery store and try it. nt SunSeeker May 23 #122

when I go to the grocery store, the cashier tells me the total on my bill stopdiggin May 23 #129

You make my point. You pay what the store tells you, or you get no groceries. SunSeeker May 23 #132

which of course has not a single thing to do with conversation at hand stopdiggin May 23 #137

Yes it does. And, "as a reminder," I was responding to your post. SunSeeker May 23 #139

You voluntary round up your grocery tab? stopdiggin May 23 #140

No. Which is why I oppose getting rid of pennies when there is no law in place requiring rounding up AND down. SunSeeker May 23 #141

well, at least we're no longer ploughing trenchant (and immaterial) ground stopdiggin May 23 #142

I was never "ploughing immaterial ground." Pennies matter to the poor. SunSeeker May 23 #143

And I will continue to maintain that the 'pennies matter' mantra stopdiggin May 24 #144

Eliminating pennies does indeed have bad practical import for the poor. SunSeeker May 24 #145

this is an opinion piece (not sourced to the Fed, the CBO, nor any other recognized 'authority' ) stopdiggin May 24 #146

The research by Penn State economist Ray Lombra, and more recently by Georgetown fellow Robert Shapiro are not opinion. SunSeeker May 24 #147

Wrong. The rounding in Canada is mandated by law and consumers and merchants love it. It's neutral. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #35

That's CANADA, where people are also guaranteed free healthcare. SunSeeker May 22 #86

Eliminating healthcare has nothing to do with eliminating the penalty. The poor would lose no pennies on bread Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #89

What "proposed law" would require split rounding IN THE US? Name it please. SunSeeker May 22 #93

The law that would be required to eliminate the penny would have to be proposed, passed and enacted. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #96

The Bill regarding elimination of the penny was introduced in the House in February of this year Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #110

Wrong. SunSeeker May 23 #120

You didn't search Bernardo de La Paz May 23 #124

You didn't read SunSeeker May 23 #127

Fair enough. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz May 23 #130

Here is the bill for the proposed law. Yes, it includes rounding in both directions, as is expected and sensible. thesquanderer May 22 #116

That proposal would still make people pay 5 cents for anything that costs 1-4 cents. But better than no law. SunSeeker May 23 #119

There is probably nothing in a store that costs 1-4 cents. thesquanderer May 23 #136

There will probaby be nothing in a store priced to allow people to round down if such a law passed. SunSeeker May 24 #148

Of course many prices round up. But generally things are just as likely to round down, so it works out even. thesquanderer May 25 #150

Rounding does not "work out even" in actual practice; the total is most often rounded up. SunSeeker May 25 #151

re: Dollar Tree's $1.25 w/ sales tax $1.37, rounding to $1.40? No, $1.37 rounds to $1.35. thesquanderer May 25 #152

It rounds to $1.40 with no rounding law in place, which is the US situation now. SunSeeker May 25 #153

The current US situation is that no rounding occurs at all. thesquanderer May 25 #154

You have way more faith in the Trump administration than I do. nt SunSeeker May 25 #155

It's not up to Trump, it's up to Congress. thesquanderer May 25 #156

It's a Trump sycophant majority who is cutting Medicaid. You think they'll get right on that rounding legislation? SunSeeker May 25 #157

No. It does not work that way. Nonsense. The law in Canada mandates rounding, which balances out Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #34

You are the one spreading nonsense. We are not Canada. We have no such law. nt SunSeeker May 22 #90

I never claimed the US had such a law. We are discussing the proposal to eliminate the penny. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #94

LOL. The "obvious" path is not the one the US will always take. SunSeeker May 22 #99

Healthcare has nothing to do with eliminating the penny. The poor won't lose 4 cents on bread Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #100

"if Canada and New Zealand can accomplish...then so can the USA." SunSeeker May 23 #121

Eliminating the penny is much simpler than ANY of those. Obviously. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz May 23 #125

Surely they'll be rounding to 5 cents, not to 10 muriel_volestrangler May 22 #19

Yes, as you say. It balances out, it's automatic in cash register, which is told cash or card Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #36

Egads! I obviously screwed up my post and will correct it. PSPS May 22 #52

absolutely not. the sales tax figure remains - 11 cents (which is of course bundled into your purchase price) stopdiggin May 22 #20

No. Bill added up, tax computed, final amount rounded plus/minus to 5 cents not ten, and only if cash. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #37

When I was in Germany 40 years ago there wasn't a lot of US coin change around for the PX. Jacson6 May 22 #74

No Polybius May 22 #118

no it won't. stopdiggin May 22 #15

Not a problem, no complication. Half the time the customer's bill is rounded down, the other half rounded up Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #33

With so many transactions being electronic customerserviceguy May 22 #101

When Nixon told the nation to stop hoarding pennies, my wife began hoarding them in earnest. Bo Zarts May 22 #4

They haven't had pennies in Canada for years Freddie May 22 #5

long overdue. this is one place where public sentiment ran counter stopdiggin May 22 #6

But, they WILL (round up) hlthe2b May 22 #9

Depends what the laws will say. cstanleytech May 22 #18

ONLY on cash purchases. and, even there, on any purchase greater than we'll say 2 or 3 dollars stopdiggin May 22 #25

The lack of concern for the poor who do not and will not have the access to credit cards, debit cards, hlthe2b May 22 #26

It's neutral. Half the time it rounds down; other half time rounds up. Canadians are happy with the move years ago. . nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #30

There is still a cash economy that is hard for many to remember--for the poorest among us. hlthe2b May 22 #39

It's on the bill. The poorest in Canada have no problem with it. It's neutral, by law and automatic in the register. nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #40

This isn't Canada. And our "conservatives" are in no way comparable or even rational as your worst. hlthe2b May 22 #41

US cash registers work the same as Canadian. Probably made and programmed in US. And DONT SMEAR ME Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #46

Cash registers ring up the prices the owner charges. THis is idiotic, Bernard. I thought you had compassion. hlthe2b May 22 #48

I am going by the facts. You point to no applicable facts Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #54

Look, I hate what Trump's policies are doing to Canadian-American relationships, but then you post this? hlthe2b May 22 #57

This thread is about eliminating the penny. Dragging irrelevant policies into the discussion is a distraction. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #68

even in the case of the 'poor' - the effect still amounts to - negligable stopdiggin May 22 #32

"Negligible" to you and I who are so little affected-not so much for the "cash economy." I wish we still had Bobbolink hlthe2b May 22 #38

How about you stop using Republicon naming of the Big Bum Bill, which this has NOTHING to do with. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #49

It is additive. Just like tariffs and every single policy in that bill that will decimate the poor. hlthe2b May 22 #51

It is not additive. You can't prove that. You haven't even tried to prove that. It is neutral Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #60

Says the Canadian who despite all of DU bemoaning Trump's damage to US-Canadian relationships hlthe2b May 22 #62

Where. Provide the link for your assertion. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #64

You are not worth my time. It was clearly highlighted in your previous posts. BYE. hlthe2b May 22 #66

Should your personal attack be alerted? I'm not going to alert your post #66 Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #69

I made no personal attack, quite the opposite in ignoring your attacks* and hoping a future will resolve hlthe2b May 22 #71

You wrote "You are not worth my time". . . .nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #72

Not NOW you are not. Just posting the same thing over and over and over--ignoring my points & issues. hlthe2b May 22 #76

You are the one repeating. I made points that you have not refuted. You repeat points I have refuted. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #81

You mischaracterize me regarding the poor. When something is neutral to the poor it does NOT discount their plight Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #73

Because I am not talking about taxes as I have stated repeatedly. hlthe2b May 22 #77

You were the first to mention tariff taxes in posts 38 and 48. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #83

Count me opposed. Since when is creating currency or coin supposed to be at virtually no cost? hlthe2b May 22 #8

It's neutral, it's automatic, Canadians love it, it saves EVERYONE time and bother. You have no points to make. nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #42

This isn't Canada. GO read the Big Beautiful bill and the harms that will come to that population and hlthe2b May 22 #45

This has NOTHING to do with the Big Bum Bill Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #47

It is additive. As is a lack of compassion for the impacts (EFFECTS if you prefer) to the poor. hlthe2b May 22 #53

It is not additive. No way. Simply saying that is no proof. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #56

The impacts, the EFFECTS of all these policies ARE additive. hlthe2b May 22 #61

Getting rid of the penny is not additive. It is neutral and makes life easier. There are no "additive" effects. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #63

Repeating your retort that tries so damned hard to reframe my point to your desired argument is so meaningless. hlthe2b May 22 #65

You have not been understanding that eliminating the penny is neutral and people like it where it has been done. nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #70

Even reframing the use of the word "understanding..." as I used in my responses hlthe2b May 22 #78

Fine. You have not been understanding of me. You have not understood that I am using economics and mathematics.nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #84

Well then you should like Georgetown economist Robert Shapiro's study finding that eliminating the penny hurts the poor. SunSeeker May 25 #149

Thx. The Joys of Being Wrong, the diligence of DUer "SunSeeker", and the Elimination of the Penny Bernardo de La Paz May 26 #158

Hmmmm? Wonder what nickels are worth now? brush May 22 #10

about 13 cents moonshinegnomie May 22 #55

Have they worked out this creating an even bigger problem with the nickel? Eugene May 22 #13

No problem with nickels in Canada. Yes, Canadian Treasury is revenue neutral bc rounding evens out in long run. nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #44

I grew up in the 1950's and I remember "penny candies" FakeNoose May 22 #14

My childhood home was half a block from some railroad tracks. JustABozoOnThisBus May 22 #29

Yep ... we did that too when we were kids FakeNoose May 22 #31

We used to find them in the trolley tracks here in Philly BumRushDaShow May 22 #67

I think this sucks. And like everything else, it will hurt poor people. SunSeeker May 22 #16

It is entirely neutral for the poor. It rounds out, it is automatic, it is no cost. Experience proves it. . nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #50

We're talking America here. The "experience" in Europe does not apply. SunSeeker May 22 #75

I did not refer to Europe. And you are wrong about corporations Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #80

What US law are you referring to? SunSeeker May 22 #82

I am referring to the proposal of eliminating the penny which would be enacted by a law. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #87

So you're just making shit up. There is no US law requiring split rounding. nt SunSeeker May 22 #88

The OP is about a proposal. The proposal is not shit. It is practical. It would be enacted by law. . . .nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #91

THE OP DOES NOT DISCUSS HOW ROUNDING WILL BE HANDLED. SunSeeker May 22 #95

The elimination of the penny would require a law rounding cash transactions. This is obvious. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #97

Tell that to Trump, who eliminated the penny via social media post, with no law in place. nt SunSeeker May 23 #123

Got any more practical suggestions? He did not eliminate it. Be real. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz May 23 #126

It's not my suggestion. Trump tweeted he was ending penny production and Treasury complied. All illegal of course. SunSeeker May 23 #128

He can order the tide to recede if he likes. That doesn't make it real. A tweet is not an Executive Order. Bernardo de La Paz May 23 #131

His declarations are treated as law by his subservient executive branch. SunSeeker May 23 #133

becasue of teh way rounding is done it wont hurt them moonshinegnomie May 22 #59

That is not how the rounding will be done in the US. SunSeeker May 22 #79

just going off texas laws moonshinegnomie May 22 #104

good. i've been refusing to take them for yrs. they arent money any more. mopinko May 22 #21

A penny for your thoughts Canada Kid May 22 #24

No more make a wish penny in the fountain? Sigh. The modern era. cbabe May 22 #27

When I was stationed in Germany the US stopped sending pennies to the base banks. SeattleVet May 22 #43

I think my time in Germany is why I hate having change in my pocket underpants May 22 #92

The rounding from the elimination of pennies would be on final transaction, not on prices. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #111

In Germanic if it said 4 12 or 18 it was that underpants May 22 #117

i have no problem with dumping the penny moonshinegnomie May 22 #58

Irrelevant: "costs more to manufacture than the coin is worth." That would only matter if the coin was only used FSogol May 22 #98

in 2024 it cost about 2.5c to make a penny according to the mint moonshinegnomie May 22 #105

these are a few countries that have dropped their equivalent of teh penny moonshinegnomie May 22 #106

Capitulation to Trump inflation bucolic_frolic May 22 #102

Not capitulation, not rounding prices, no problem balancing books. Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #113

Do Canadian pennies still circulate? bucolic_frolic May 22 #114

Nope. Nobody gives or takes pennies, esp not underground. Most were redeemed at banks. . . .nt Bernardo de La Paz May 22 #115

Now it will be Take A Nickel, Give A Nickel at checkout. BadgerKid May 22 #103

They say it costs four cents to make each penny. Why not just offer everyone two cents for every penny they turn in. twodogsbarking May 22 #107

Good cabotnn22 May 22 #108

I am selling pennies for 2 cents each mdbl May 22 #109

Will we then have to "surrender" our pennies because they won't no_hypocrisy May 23 #134

Will very likely remain legal tender DetroitLegalBeagle May 23 #135

Massive cash contributions from copper-mining firms to trump in 10, 9, 8, 7... (nt) Paladin May 23 #138

My guess is EndlessWire May 26 #159