thoughts about finding common ground with blue collar men and feminism

[Regrell]

This discussion thread was locked by boston bean (a host of the History of Feminism group).

So I was thinking a bit about the MRA movement gaining momentum, then reading about the Eliot Rogers massacre, and then randomly about suicides, as I had recently heard the Golden Gate is finally getting suicide nets after decades of resistance.

One common theme that connected these threads is the devastating effects of "unmet expectations" on an individuals's sense of self-worth and yes, expectations...which we might also call "privilege".

While not downplaying the catastrophic and disproportionate price women pay at the hands of emotionally ill, broken people, I want to draw some parallels and investigate why many men (and some women, yes) can snap and do grievous harm to themselves, others, or often both.

Elliot Rogers grew up on the edges of the privilege wealth gives, but he was not in the elite leagues around him. This is not a sympathetic narrative, but within Roger's narrow lens of existence, it was an outrage that blonde models were not dripping off of his arm. Rampagers like Elliot Rogers are often described as "lone", because their other privilege (wealth) excludes them sympathy from support networks, as we saw with Roger's failed forays into PUA/"game", ets... unlike the next group.

This group is one I believe feminists can find true ground with....the utter failure of our late capitalist experiment to sustain a solid middle class expectation of job/food/community security. To me, the sheer physical and psychological stress of many traditionally male blue collar jobs can be just as devastating as rape. I am a survivor myself...and I also know my neighbor's son whose leg was chewed off in an industrial accident.

Honestly, if I had to choose between my rape and having my leg chewed off...I'd keep my leg. Whatever my abuser took from me, I grew it again in my heart. I think I actually gained something -- I'm stronger than I ever imagined. But if my leg was taken from me, it would take not only the mental and emotional healing, but physical pain and having to learn how to move through the world again. To learn to accept help you once took great pride in your self-preservation. Yes, I know this is controversial...

These are jobs which are also increasingly outsourced to immigrant labor, further inflaming white blue collar male anger, not to mention stripping oversite and killing and maiming even MORE workers, because men with no papers tell no stories. The entire economy is help hostage by a rapidly ride of the ever-more stratospheric wealthy.

If you get rich enough, even atheists feel divine, as if their fortune was either ordained by the universe or manifested through their sheer brilliance and hard work. Which is, of course, complete horseshit but the point remains that this uberclass doesn't give a shit about how many oil riggers, or fishery workers, or army grunts, or loggers lose their ability to walk...or worse.

Tell me how that person isn't at his core, a prostitute. His body is his asset, it's what he trades for money, and his physical strength will wane and he begins to lose value, much like an aging hooker.

So what's my point? Sorry for the ramble. Unmet expectations normally affect people with something to lose, something that is threatened, most grievously. White working class men are losing union-driven solidarity, up against a juggernaut of trasnational neoliberalism which is making him an endangered species.

Sure, there's a lot of misdirected hatred towards feminists, immigrants, and others in this demographic, but maybe we can all see how we rent our bodies, and our minds, to a system that wants nothing more than to replace us with...or make us into (whatever ends up being cheaper)...robots.

Unmet expectations somehow sounds too clinical when you think about it this way....

[mercuryblues]

2. I have

a completely different view.

He grew up with wealth. More than enough wealth that could afford to give him the mental heath he desperately needed. His rambling had a clear theme... he was owed those blondes and could not "get them" to like him. Is it any wonder women and males around him would ignore him with his views and the subsequent rampage he went on. They picked up on his seething rage and hatred and stayed clear. In return he immersed himself in a culture that supported his views that called women liars, considered woman as nothing more than something to fuck, gold diggers and more. He fit right in with that culture.


I believe when people have mental health issues as severe as he did, they do not focus on an ideology out of the blue. They seek out the ideology that reinforces their already held beliefs, before they go on their downward spiral.


As far as the economy. People have to have something or something to blame for their falling wealth. The elite have done a great job on getting a good portion of society to divert the on blame those evil feminists for wanting to be equal, minorities leeching of the government, single moms for working instead of staying home and raising kids. No, it has nothing to do with the fact that everyone in this country is losing wealth while the 1% is gaining and hoarding theirs. The elite are like the crazy cat lady only instead of cats they hoard money then scream about having to pay taxes. They are owed that money, but to most of them the average citizen are nothing but parasites taking it away- even the people who work for them.

I empathize with your personal battle and so happy you have been able to not only survive but to come out stronger.

Now about your use of whore... Using a derogatory term for a female to describe something? Can you please edit and replace it with a gender neutral term.

[kcr]

3. The elite had the perfect tool and used it well. Rush Limbaugh.

You can see the evidence of his handiwork all the time. The OP suggests finding common ground but this would be a Herculean task. It would help if we could have our own Rush Limbaugh in terms of power and effectiveness of spreading memes, and have the same presence in the media. I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Regrell]

10. Well the alternative is more violence.

The most powerful behavioral control mechanism is shaming and fear of exile. This has been the case since time immemorial, where your group turning its back on you was quite literally a death sentence. Now we have the State to enact violence on our behalf...and against us.

Look, forget it. Obviously some people are trying to read something into my thread that isn't there. I'm not excusing anything, I'm trying to point out the larger dangers that threaten anyone who is struggling to scratch a living in a culture and economy hell-bent on reducing us all, mind, body, and spirit...to replaceable cogs left to scrabble over increasingly sparse resources while the uber wealthy ride it out in military grade luxury bunkers with militarized police to protect them.

Maybe not today, maybe not 20 years...but we can start to see it happening. Fuck the Eliot Rogers of the world, but maybe try and talk to the guy who lost his job at the coal mine.

[Regrell]

6. I find it interesting you focus on the one example that I said was NOT sympathetic.

I will not edit out whore. It is a word that is applied to anyone of any gender, who is forced by necessity to trade on their body.

[mercuryblues]

9. I addressed

3 or 4 different points you mentioned. Hardly focusing.

Too bad you won't edit out the word. This could have been a good discussion.

[Regrell]

11. I hope so.

If you truly, truly believe that the word is the largest barrier to discussion, I'll edit it out.

But right now, I'm not getting a whole lot of good faith from anyone except you. I didn't come here to sew stealth MRA talking points in a feminist forum. I'm trying to address something that has been bugging me. And it's NOT all on feminists to get the ball rolling. As I work in tech, and most of my friends are men just by sheer proportion of people I come across, this is something that we've been talking about. I think male software engineers were incredible beneficiaries of feminist challenges to "traditional masculinity" and allowed engineers' cultural and economic ascendance.

**edit to give you credit for thoughtful response instead of suspicion =)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. oh lord ...

White working class men are losing union-driven solidarity, up against a juggernaut of trasnational neoliberalism which is making him an endangered species.

where to start.

[YoungDemCA]

5. The implication that "blue collar" and "white working class" men are synonyms...

[Regrell]

7. I never argued they were synonymous

The experiences of everyone is varied and different. But I needed a quick term to include men who trade on their bodies. I think standing on your feet for 12 hours in an Amazon sweatshop is the same kind of physically challenging work.

[Regrell]

8. I'm sorry, but it's true.

And just because less savory elements have chosen to use the "end of men" tag doesn't mean that's where I'm coming from.

Feminism won a lot of victories for a lot of men, too. The shift away from physical labor, and the primacy of engineering supplanting macho finance as the new lords of the universe could not have happened without feminism dismantling certain stereotypes about "real" men.

The fact is, men across all the industries I mentioned above are finding their entire identities going the way of the dodo. I'm no fan of macho culture, but we can't just stick our heads in the sand. And I stand by my argument that a man, or anyone really, grinding their bodies down for a paycheck has some strong parallels to prostitution.