Why I (kind of) dislike the phrase "pro-choice": on libertarian framing

[YoungDemCA]

Specifically, the "choice" part. As much as I would like to believe that all self-professed "pro-choice" individuals are for equal rights, opportunities, and access to education, power, and resources for women...well, I think we all know that this simply isn't true. Not by a long shot.

Furthermore, the use of the word "choice" can easily be turned into a Libertarian argument for enthusiastically supporting, say, pornography and prostitution-which reveals some rather, um, curious priorities for supposedly "progressive" people.

Now, I know that the word is meant to empower women. But it can just as easily empower men who wish to exploit aspects of feminism selectively and in a self-serving way. What's more, using the Libertarian language of "choice" and "freedom of association" was (and still is, to some extent) used by opponents of racial integration of schools and neighborhoods from the 1960s onward. Most recently, that language of "choice" has been used as code for discrimination against the LGBT community and others based on an individual business owner's religious beliefs.

The solution? Embrace the word equality-its usage, its meaning, and its consequences. As opponents of the patriarchy, we can cut to the chase and let people know where we stand. No need to "convert" anyone by using the words and framing of opponents of equality (like Libertarians and other right-wingers). Because frankly, I have found that the historical record shows that equality doesn't follow from liberty; rather, liberty follows from equality. The members of oppressed, disenfranchised, and marginalized social groups don't have anywhere near the same "liberty" or "choices" that the more privileged among us have. Giving a small number of individual members of said groups more choices won't solve the systemic social problems of oppression and inequality.

If you still wish to use the language of "choice", that's fine; I will not try to convince anyone otherwise. This post was just me explaining my own position on how to use words, what they mean, and how our arguments can perhaps be better framed.

My $0.02.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. I am really beginning to dislike the term Libertarian and those who consider themselves to be

Libertarians. So, I can't decide if my issue is with the term: "pro-choice" or with the term: "Libertarian".

Ugh.

[YoungDemCA]

2. Yeah, I get that

The reason this matters, IMHO, is because the terms like "choice" attract Libertarian types who may say they are "pro-choice", but for very different reasons than why progressives are.

That's why I like using the words "equality" and "equal" as much as possible. It doesn't attract people whose actual views are antithetical to feminism and progressivism.

[Kath1]

3. I've never looked at it that way.

Pro-choice, to me, means support for a woman's right to obtain an abortion. I've never had a problem with it. I've never thought the term applicable to education, employment, etc.

[theHandpuppet]

14. Same here

And I will continue to use "pro-choice" with regard to reproduction rights.

[genwah]

4. Great. Who represents your views in November and are you going to GOTV for

him/her?

Tick-tock.

[gollygee]

6. What does this have to do with the OP?

Why did you post this here?

[SheilaT]

5. Since I'm not myself a Libertarian, and I've long

despised that world view, I don not consider the term "pro-choice" to be one owned by Libertarians.

Me, I'm a very left wing Democrat, get more so as I get older. And yeah, I think women absolutely should be the ones controlling their own bodies. Doesn't make me a Libertarian.

[Kath1]

7. Well said.

I'm a 55 year-old lefty and I believe women should be trusted to make their own reproductive choices. That is 'pro-choice to me.

[SheilaT]

8. Yup.

If any man these days were to have the stupidity to start telling me women shouldn't be in charge of their own reproduction, I'd ask, as politely as I could manage, if he'd ever been pregnant. And go from there

Some years ago a young fundamentalist jerk that I know -- he was maybe 14 or 15 at the time -- started in on me once too often about his views on the topic. I said to him, "Caleb, if you don't believe in abortion then don't have one." It actually silenced him completely for about a minute, after which he said that I'd given him something to think about. Not sure where he stands these days other than I know he's still a right-wing fundamentalist conservative, but he knows better than to bring certain topics up in my presences.

[Kath1]

9. I'm with you, SheilaT.

I'm an ex-Catholic and am very opinionated on this topic.

I've had a few holier than thou individuals bring it up with me and I've stated my arguments. First, as you said, men don't get pregnant (and religion should not be the basis of any law). Second, laws against abortion won't stop it, they'll just make it dangerous. It is horrible to think that victims of rape or incest should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term. Finally, reproductive choice may be the only thing that stands between a woman and poverty, serious injury or death. The anti-choice crowd usually opposes contraception and, as for that, I say it is none of their damn business. Glad to hear you shut up the little conservative smart-ass and gave him something to think about!

[SheilaT]

11. Likewise an ex-Catholic.

Anyone who has never been in the position of having an unwanted pregnancy, and especially those who can't ever get pregnant, meaning men, have absolutely no business making decisions for others.

It's important to understand that no one decision fits all. There are those who will choose to carry an unwanted/unintended pregnancy to term and keep the baby. Good for them. They deserve all the help and support they can get. Others will decide not to carry the pregnancy. They likewise deserve support.

Here's another example. Women as time goes by face increased chances of having a baby with Down Syndrome. What they choose to do in that case is purely personal, and what I would do may well not be what some other woman would do. If some mother were to find she was carrying a child with Down and came to me and asked me for my advice or my opinion I would give it. But otherwise, my opinion or advice doesn't matter. Yes, I have an opinion on this circumstance, but it is not one that should be applied universally. It still comes down to the individual situation, and there is not only one way to decide here. Which means that in the end each and every person needs to come to her own conclusion and decision about what to do. One size does not fit all.

[Kath1]

12. Very well-said!

From one left-wing Democratic ex-Catholic to another - PEACE

[nomorenomore08]

10. Equality. As in, women have the same right to bodily integrity that men do. Pretty simple.

As for the "porn/prostitution" aspect you brought up, I don't think sex work should be condemned or abhorred, but I also don't think it should be glamorized any more than, say, working at Wal-Mart, or in a coal mine.

RE: "liberty" vs. "equality" I really don't think you can have one without the other. True individual liberty (for all) is impossible without social equality, but without respect for the rights (and yes, choices) of the individual, I don't see much of a basis for equality. Authoritarianism respects neither equality nor liberty.

[YoungDemCA]

13. Good post.

[etherealtruth]

15. autonomy/ self determination are terms I like, but ....

I fully embrace the term "choice" ... I believe in choice. I do not care for pressure and or scorn being directed toward women regarding HER choice.