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geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 03:48 PM Mar 2014

being pro-choice doesn't mean men are respectful of women's bodies, autonomy

and privacy.

the real test is where respecting women's personal autonomy and choices conflicts with their potential interests/rights/privileges as a man.

it's a very low bar for a man to respect women's rights when it only stands to benefit him by making women more sexually available by lowering (but of course not eliminate) the risk to them of being sexually available

you can see this when women assert their personal autonomy and rights in a way that potentially disadvantages some man, somewhere, to some minor degree.

see, for example, a woman who dares to give birth in the presence of only people she feels comfortable around, and not have a man there whose presence would upset her.

then all bets are off with some

see the comments here, as an example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014752698

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
being pro-choice doesn't mean men are respectful of women's bodies, autonomy (Original Post) geek tragedy Mar 2014 OP
I though it may have been that thread that led to this premise... LanternWaste Mar 2014 #1
I'm glad you raised this point BainsBane Mar 2014 #2
well, abortion is "enabling" for some men... CTyankee Mar 2014 #4
Which is why people (including men) should use birth control in the first place. nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #30
I guess I shouldn't have expected "better" in that thread's responses... CTyankee Mar 2014 #3
It really is transparent, isn't it? kcr Mar 2014 #5
it's his RIGHT to have hospital staff rip the baby out of the mother's arms and geek tragedy Mar 2014 #6
I don't even want to think about the fact that some of these people are real. kcr Mar 2014 #7
OMG. That thread was disgusting. You are a better person than I am Squinch Mar 2014 #8
No it doesn't and it never did ismnotwasm Mar 2014 #9
we're not likely to have kids, but my wife doesn't want me in the room geek tragedy Mar 2014 #10
And this doesn't have to be complicated does it? ismnotwasm Mar 2014 #11
giving people their space generally is a pretty simple proposition geek tragedy Mar 2014 #12
Oh crap the guys an asshole ismnotwasm Mar 2014 #13
most men in there--including a few with whom we disagree on some issues--are geek tragedy Mar 2014 #14
You ever wonder why they don't claim or brag about their ideology? ismnotwasm Mar 2014 #15
You're right wryter2000 Mar 2014 #18
No MRAs on DU... MadrasT Mar 2014 #16
Good lord. wryter2000 Mar 2014 #17
What a depressing thread gollygee Mar 2014 #19
But what about the men? redqueen Mar 2014 #20
I should have waited JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #21
Heh. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2014 #22
provided he ever had one nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #23
Indeed. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2014 #24
You did a fabulous job Tumbulu Mar 2014 #25
Pisses me off that people like that try to define men's agenda and interests. nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #26
well, good job! Tumbulu Mar 2014 #27
I just saw those today. redqueen Mar 2014 #28
Crazy thread... Texasgal Mar 2014 #29
Not getting a woman pregnant is my responsibility. Hence condoms/vasectomy. n/t nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #31
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
1. I though it may have been that thread that led to this premise...
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 03:58 PM
Mar 2014

I though it may have been that thread that led to this premise.

And of course, you're correct-- if we look at birth and abortion in the context of a valid medical procedure, and call them as such, it leads to such bemusing questions as "why can't I have a say in your Valid Medical Procedure?" and "what about my rights concerning your Valid Medical Procedure?"

Questions that, all things being equal, were they asked of a male by a female, would be soundly ridiculed (and rightly so). But of course, as its the male who feels slighted in this case, we again have far too many people arguing that the his identity is more important than her comfort during her Valid medical Procedure.



Idiots... the lot of 'em.

BainsBane

(54,728 posts)
2. I'm glad you raised this point
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 03:58 PM
Mar 2014

It is something I've thought for a while now. Men who opposes women's rights on a host of issue justify themselves by saying "I'm pro-choice." The fact is men have their own reasons for supporting abortion rights, as you note above. That we've seen some of those men argue that women should pay more for health insurance or that a women who refuses to have an abortion shouldn't receive child support tells me that women's choices are the last things those individuals respect. Some make a point of respecting choices that serve them, like a woman being a porn star, but not others, like a woman's right to be seek redress for sexual harassment in the workplace.
That some of those most hostile to women's rights invoke the pro-choice defense has brought much of that into focus for me.

Note: I haven't read the comments in the thread linked above and am speaking of no one in particular. Rather, these are general observations about some members of society.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
30. Which is why people (including men) should use birth control in the first place.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 09:59 PM
Mar 2014

Not perfect, but a hell of a lot better than not using it.

And if a guy really wants to be sure, he should get a vasectomy. I've considered it myself.

CTyankee

(64,929 posts)
3. I guess I shouldn't have expected "better" in that thread's responses...
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 04:18 PM
Mar 2014

Who was the king who commanded that his wife give birth flat on her back (not the best way to give birth) so he could watch? Retro indeed in that thread...my brain hurts again...

kcr

(15,522 posts)
5. It really is transparent, isn't it?
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 04:38 PM
Mar 2014

Roe V Wade, planned parenthood, blah blah blah, that's the women's thing, so whatevs... Wait, a dude couldn't be in the room during the birth?? Outrage!

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
6. it's his RIGHT to have hospital staff rip the baby out of the mother's arms and
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 04:40 PM
Mar 2014

hand the baby over to the father because SHE'S BEING SO UNREASONABLE.

I swear, I really hope some of these people don't ever have children, or trap a woman into living with them

kcr

(15,522 posts)
7. I don't even want to think about the fact that some of these people are real.
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 04:42 PM
Mar 2014

That is nightmare inducing.

Squinch

(52,568 posts)
8. OMG. That thread was disgusting. You are a better person than I am
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 05:06 PM
Mar 2014

to try to address the nonsense they were spewing.

ismnotwasm

(42,443 posts)
9. No it doesn't and it never did
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 05:07 PM
Mar 2014

Conversely, my daughter thought one or two of her midwives were deliberately exclusive of her husband-- who, by mutual agreement wanted to be part of the birth process. ( be there, cut the cord etc,) I was a little surprised, because I thought we had moved past that men out of the delivery room business. Turns out people who work in that field see to many abusive or irresponsible parents. Women are taken aside and gently questioned if abuse is suspected.

It pissed my daughter off, who doesn't realize what healthcare workers see. It all worked out though. My SIL proudly participates and does as much as he can.

When my very first grandchild was born (I was 37 or 38-- we both were early breeders) she was not married to her current husband and most emphatically did NOT want my husband there. His feelings were a bit hurt because he had been at HIS daughters birth, and considers it the ultimate spiritual experience but he understood and complied.

Why is this an argument? Birth can be a long drawn out, certainly painful process with a person losing all autonomy and is at their most vulnerable. There's blood and shit and other body fluids. There are tears in the perineum that have to be sown. There are emergency c-sections. There are a dozen things that can go wrong and if a women just wants her medical team that's her business.

Some of the responses in that thread are not surprising to me at all. Sacred sperm and all that

I just read "both parents have equal rights" oh really? Did the father spend 9 months just risking his life, go through horrendous pain, and will spend a bit of medical recovery time--a lot or a little depending on the circumstances? Equal? Uh uh.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
10. we're not likely to have kids, but my wife doesn't want me in the room
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 05:18 PM
Mar 2014

when she gets medical treatment.

last time I was, she was describing the extreme pain she was suffering to the doctor and I wound up fainting when I tried to walk away, turns out her pain bothers me more than my own does

ismnotwasm

(42,443 posts)
11. And this doesn't have to be complicated does it?
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 05:26 PM
Mar 2014

I often ask family members-- wives, husband if they need to leave the room during certain procedures. Women don't necessarily want their husbands see them get a catheter put in for instance. Or some people hate needles or the sight of blood. You sound pretty empathetic, and not being there is the right thing to do. She will tell you want you need/want to know.

I've kicked my husband out of the room during Pap smears just because he hovers a bit and I'm like go ON now-- get coffee or something. He doesn't care-- he just wants to be there for me if I need him.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
12. giving people their space generally is a pretty simple proposition
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 05:28 PM
Mar 2014

unless one is determined to complicate it

ismnotwasm

(42,443 posts)
13. Oh crap the guys an asshole
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 05:30 PM
Mar 2014

I just read the article- they weren't even together, and he wants to insert himself? So he sues? And they're defending him?

Now I'm irritated.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
14. most men in there--including a few with whom we disagree on some issues--are
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 05:32 PM
Mar 2014

pretty much in agreement with us that the purported father is a colossal asshole

But the few that aren't--holy shit, some serious MRAism going on there.



ismnotwasm

(42,443 posts)
15. You ever wonder why they don't claim or brag about their ideology?
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 05:44 PM
Mar 2014

Aside from the ahem little fact they're considered hate groups. I read MRA blogs all the time, I don't post them except through sites like "manboobz"


But they're not too hard to identify.

wryter2000

(47,367 posts)
18. You're right
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 06:47 PM
Mar 2014

I haven't been involved in these wars as much as most of the people in this forum, but my impression is that most of the men on DU "get it," or at least try to "get it." The MRAs though. Lordy!

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
19. What a depressing thread
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 07:37 AM
Mar 2014

People honestly think it's OK to snatch a baby away from a mother immediately after birth?

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
20. But what about the men?
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 09:08 AM
Mar 2014

There is a man involved! What about him?

We are all supposed to automatically prioritize his wants, because male privilege!

JustAnotherGen

(33,390 posts)
21. I should have waited
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 12:46 PM
Mar 2014

Before giving my comments on that thread - for you to write something. I walked away from DU yesterday because of that.

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
24. Indeed.
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 08:09 PM
Mar 2014

And all of us women who must have been so 'damaged by men' can just sit back and laugh. Wouldn't it be weird if that was just some performance art?

Tumbulu

(6,438 posts)
25. You did a fabulous job
Thu Mar 13, 2014, 11:57 PM
Mar 2014

thank you, I got pretty angry, and think that I will actually put that main character on ignore. Especially after reading the snippets from his very creepy other posts. YUCK!

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