To those who claim that feminism is somehow about being "sex-negative"...

[YoungDemCA]

I don't buy it. At all.

Feminism is not about being "sex-negative" or "sex-positive," IMHO. That is a false lens through which to view this debate. Rather, it is about being sex-constructive, as opposed to sex-destructive.

Healthy expressions of sex and sexuality, based on individual agency, dignity, self-worth, respect, empathy, caring, love, playfulness/fun, and mutual attraction, is how I would define the "sex-constructive" approach. The sex-destructive approach is based on unwanted attention, deception, coercion, power differentials, repression, inequality, shaming, fear, abuse, violence, and ultimately, rape.

I think all of us in this group can agree that we want to promote the former (constructive approach, not the latter (destructive) one, as much as possible. Surely, women and men alike (as well as those of other gender identities) can agree to this? What is so damn controversial or unclear about this distinction?

Believe it or not, my fellow (straight) men...women love good (as opposed to bad!) sex just as much as men do! They just also appreciate being respected as individual human beings (crazy concept, I know! ), not being reduced to an object for any man to have his way with. And no, no one is entitled to sex, certainly not without the consent of the other human being (subject with his/her own individual autonomy and agency) in whatever situation it is.

Is this really so hard? I am a straight white man, young and relatively inexperienced compared to many here on DU, yet even someone like me can understand these concepts.

My $0.02.

[chervilant]

1. Thank you for a cogent assessment,

and here's hoping the resident sexists and misogynists will heed your words without snarking about feminism.

[YoungDemCA]

2. I'm not so concerned about the hardcore ones...

It's the many people who sympathize with feminism, but are afraid to speak out (because of the individuals you referred to), that I hope will read this.

[chervilant]

3. Good point,

as--for example--my 27YO niece has adamantly asserted she is not a "radical feminist" whilst using misogynistic language and repeating sexist jokes so that her guy friends accept her as 'non-threatening.'

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. Feminism is about money and respect.

Money and respect.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. Feminism is a human dignity issue seeking to recognize that all genders/sexes

no matter their race, color or creed be given the same respect as any other.

Your take on the sexual aspect of it falls naturally into place.

It is really so simple that only the deliberately obtuse, or the willfully ignorant, or the powerful elite, choose to not understand.

[chervilant]

6. This TED video

of Clementine Ford might interest you...

[Scootaloo]

7. The argument that it is "sex negative"

Comes from people who seem to value either gender only as sexual partners. And so some degree, it's not heir fault - our media culture, unable to convey human relationships in advertising, settles for the old adage, "Sex sells," thus devaluing humans to the barest and most basic standards of sexuality... which of course ends up inundating the overal culture with these concepts.

[BainsBane]

10. Not as sexual partners

as sexual objects.

[Scootaloo]

12. Fair point

[DeSwiss]

8. K&R!

[McCamy Taylor]

9. People (mostly but not all men) project their feelings about women onto women.

If men fear a cold, castrating bitch who withholds love, then feminists are anti-sex. If they fear a woman who has sex with other guys (aka a slut) then feminists are pro-sex. Both are tied up with feelings of rejection and poor self esteem and the notion that they (these mostly men but a few women) would feel good about themselves if only some woman had not treated them like shit.

Women (and more than a few men) project shit onto men, too. However, women do not have as much power in this society so it is more difficulty for them to turn their fears into MSM headlines and blockbuster motion pictures. Men who have a beef with their cold dads have a tremendous social impact.

Since we have a matriarchy in which mothers indoctrinate daughters into a not so secret all female club, there is less woman against women projection but its happens. I sometimes wonder how many of the Right to Life women felt unloved by their moms.

[Squinch]

23. Very true! Even last week, there were a

number of threads about some porn war that was supposed to be going on, and when you read through the threads, it was just posters who were talking about how terrible the people were who were in the thread opposing porn. Problem was, there was no one in the threads opposing porn. Just these people being outraged about the imaginary opposition.

This says little about feminism, and a lot about the people who need to joust with their own imaginations.

[The Traveler]

11. Sexual response is one of the most complex of human behaviors

We really need to decouple the social and political notion of feminism from sexual response. These are different matters.

What turns on one woman is abomination to another, or worse boring. We need to be sensitive to those differences in our partners. And we need to understand that private sexual conduct is distinct from career path and politics.

It is difficult to talk about this sanely when political figures talk as if rape is OK, or that rapist have parental rights, or that it is in some way understandable. In reaction to that madness, some feminists come across as prudes. This is almost never an accurate perception of the feminist. We have to always evaluate those kinds of comments in the context of the real horror show confronting women in these times.

Politically aware women are bound to be hypersensitive on these subjects right now. So, we men who would love them need to be aware of that and give them some room for their angst. That angst is not unreasonable. Women's rights are in jeopardy, and we hairy types need to step up and support those rights.


Trav

[BainsBane]

13. I think many know it's not about repressed sexuality

or prudishness but use that to belittle feminists anyway. That's how it is on DU. To maintain that misunderstanding after repeating being told it isn't the case is willful. Then the question is why do they insist on distorting arguments? What purpose does it serve them? Clearly they derive something from refusing to concede enough respect to feminists to engage with what we actually think.

[Squinch]

24. "Why do they insist on distorting arguments?"

I think all these arguments are less about any feminist position, and more about a feeling of having been ill treated by women, and wanting to put some woman, any woman, in her place. If it happens to be a woman with the strong opinion that she has as much intrinsic value as the writer, all the better to show her that she does not have equal value.

It's a very slightly more subtle version of the "Bennyboy" tactic.

[BainsBane]

25. That brings us back to

&feature=kp

Ism always know the right song for the occasion.

[Squinch]

26. Yeppers!!!!

[BainsBane]

36. Jesus, now they are stoking poutrage

because I commented on an article about Adam Lanza's father declaring his son evil. I commented that the father's remarks lend insight into why Adam thought it was a good idea to shoot up a grade school.

Hell breaks loose. Why didn't I condemn the mother? Didn't I know it was all her fault? Who was I to pass judgment on a father, a man. Of course the fact the mother is murdered and not giving interviews and was not the subject of the OP is entirely irrelevant.



Awaiting the latest installment of Straw woman Today.

[seabeyond]

37. wow. and here i have been reading a book and playing with dog all day. oh, and my two nieces,

and a son, having a lovely conversation on a beautiful afternoon. hmmmmm. think i will go back to that.

[Squinch]

44. I have to look for that thread. I hadn't seen it.

Lanza's father! OMG.

That situation is a little close to home. My niece and nephew were in the first grade in the other school in the same town. Played t-ball with some of the kids.

I'll need to tread carefully....

[redqueen]

27. This.

It says a lot that after his admission about what motivated him to come on here and try to piss women off, that those who often defended him in his efforts have redoubled their own efforts (e.g. the imaginary porn war).

This is why it is so difficult to discuss feminist issues online. There are people who intentionally shit all over these discussions with no reason other than to piss women off. Honest misunderstandings are few and far between. The shit-stirring people with obvious, deep-seated issues with women are as common as dirt.

[Squinch]

28. The imaginary porn war kind of said it all about those doing battle with their own brains

[BainsBane]

30. That was something

Both sad and funny at the same time.

[Squinch]

33. But also kind of fascinating.

Some of it was trollery, to be sure, but I'd be willing to bet that some was sincere. I bet that some of those flailing in that thread were absolutely convinced that they were fighting against someone who was arguing with them and oppressing them.

It is very concrete proof that the projection that McCamy Taylor describes in post 9 in this thread is very much a factor in all of this.

[LanternWaste]

45. I think they were fighting against something that was arguing with them and oppressing them

"they were fighting against someone who was arguing with them and oppressing them..."

I think they actually were fighting against something that was arguing with them and oppressing them-- the better angels of their good natures, consistently in their ears, compelling them to act with respect and empathy for others.

When we are determined to take a course of action we can neither take pride in nor rationally defend, there are few other options given to humans other than acting out aggressively in a petulant manner.

[Squinch]

48. You are giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I very much hope you are right.

And your last paragraph is a kick-butt description of what is going on here.

[redqueen]

31. Yep. Someone here said it well...

that they were all but doing backflips and handsprings trying to get someone, anyone, to take the bait.

Sad.

Sadder still is the assertion from women participating in that dumbassery that its just so awful how the evil women who oppose porn are so quick to label anyone who disagrees as not being a real feminist.... just a few posts down from a dude actually labeling feminists who oppose porn as "faux feminists".

I mean seriously, come on. It has to be performance art. It just has to.

[Squinch]

34. Labeling feminists as "faux feminists" because of their

opinions on porn! Why not just get a bullhorn and stand on a street corner, and tell everyone, "I have no idea what feminism is!"

This reduction of feminism to being about porn shows such self-obsession, such astounding entitlement ("Your desire for equal rights is really about limiting the porn that I like, and getting in the way of the sex I think I should be getting, but can't get!" - -), basically it shows such an infantile, deluded mentality, I can't even imagine how they get along in the world.

[redqueen]

35. Very well said.

I imagine they get along by not paying very much attention at all to feminists, lest they be influenced to reconsider their precious entitlements.

[seabeyond]

41. ya know... lol. and here i was on my way out the door. yup. lmao. nt

[BainsBane]

49. the thing is

there views are identical to the people who say they hate feminism. The only difference is these ones claim to be feminists and anyone who disagrees with them, especially women, aren't. Make a list of the issues on these folks vs. the ones who admit to opposing feminism, and their positions are identical. That is what makes me believe the whole "I'm a real feminist" is nothing but a rhetorical tactic.

[Squinch]

50. But, but, but... when you point out how all their positions are the same as those who

oppose feminism, aren't you afraid of alienating your allies???!111?????

[seabeyond]

40. cause redq, we have clearly learned the issue is not about women and our issues. it is about da porn

that is all it is for these people, protecting da porn. we talk about all kinds of shit and it is about da porn. no more or less the whole world evolves around da porn. addiction? i mean. what is a woman to think.

[seabeyond]

39. i know... it was so fuggin stupid, arguing with nothing. lol. i was all wtf....

perused the front page and wtf???? lol

[Squinch]

29. "Honest misunderstandings are few and far between."

This is absolutely true. I feel certain that those distorting feminist positions are aware of exactly what they are doing.

[redqueen]

32. Of course... it's as plain as day.

There have been so many examples just on this board. And countless more in other online spaces.

[seabeyond]

42. what about those that blatantly abuse the five rule... hu hu. rollin eyes.

k

i am outta here

love you women. you gave me a huge smile to go skippin off in my day.

[Squinch]

43. Make it a good one!

Love you back!

[seabeyond]

38. no redq. there is no misunderstandings. we all understand. clearly.

you are right on

[YoungDemCA]

46. Very well said.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. thank you for this post.

thank you.

[gollygee]

14. They know it isn't "sex-negative"

or prudish IMO. It's being used as a means to dismiss the whole argument. They label it as prudishness and they don't have to think about it.

[geek tragedy]

15. when they say "sex negative" they mean that someone doesn't approve

of exploitation and degradation.

[KitSileya]

18. Exactly.

"Sex negative" is when you support women (and men!) making choices other than having sex all the time with everyone who wants it. Daring to support women (and men!) not having sex, supporting people when they do not want to have sex and sexual images forced before their eyes. Daring to say that while sex is something natural and a part of many people's lives, there are a segment of people who are asexual, and they have as much a right to a sex-free environment as people who love sex have the right to exercise their wish to have sex. That even people who love sex may want certain venues that are free of sexual images and sexual behavior and descriptions of sex.


"Sex negative" is when you recognize that in many situations, consent isn't or cannot be given freely, because of reasons other than pure violence. When you say that blackmail, emotional pressure, money dependence, impaired judgment, behavior, and age can cast doubt over whether consent was freely given, and that is a cause for concern.


In other words, you're "sex negative" not because you think sex is shameful, and have an unhealthy attitude towards sex, and think badly about anyone who has sex - you are "sex negative" because you lessen their chances of getting laid. And we all know that another word for "sex negative" is "prude"....and "HoFer" and "a certain group on DU", or "Some die-hards that make DU suck (because we can't post sexualized images and drool over them without push-back)".

[seabeyond]

19. we all know that another word for "sex negative" is "prude"....and "HoFer" and "a certain group on D

exactly

[ismnotwasm]

16. The sex lives of individual feminists

Are nobodies business. I always hated that term. It's disingenuous and divisive.

Great post!

[seabeyond]

17. it was used to insult women. it is still being used to insult women. a handful of men continue to

use it to get their giggle, sex shaming women.

that is what it is all about.

to shame and humiliate women about our sexuality.

call her a slut, call her a prude, call her sex negative, it is all about using womens sexuality to shame to silence.

that is what these men are doing. that is what they proudly and boldly say to all of du using these terms. that they are such sexists, that they have no argument, and their only way to address the issue is to sex shame a woman.

[KitSileya]

20. I read somewhere that just because you problematise some aspects of sexuality and culture,

doesn't mean that you are "sex negative". It isn't as if, just because you criticize certain parts of how our culture looks at sex, you want to stop all the people from having all the sex. And that is what a certain contingent here on DU is claiming that we "HoFers" want to do. Since we are saying hold on a minute, this part of our culture is problematic and we should discuss it, they act like we're telling them that they should never get laid ever again. It's very false - I'd say even deliberately malicious - of them.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. Malicious. Good word for what is happening.

Very appropriate word. We have a team assembled to take care of the low count posters who are malicious. I guess we are expected to be the high count malicious posters on ignore. Use the tools provided by DU admin.

[seabeyond]

21. i have stated this so many times and will state again, not that it wont be ignored also.

i have absolutely no desire to discuss an individual womans choice walking into the sex commerce world. that is her individual choice.

discussing this industry that uses up, and spits out women. that effects all women how we are treated. that effects all men, how they treat us. that has a power as a societal whole. that hurts women and our children (boys and girls). that is my issue. that is what i discuss. and that is what i will continue to discuss. that has nothing to do with what some girl at duke university is doing. i. do. not. care. one way or another.

but.... i will discuss what these choices mean to us as a whole. not the girl. not the three butts on a cover. they do not really matter one bit. it is their choice. their life to live.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

51. "... i will discuss what these choices mean to us as a whole."

Last edited Wed Mar 12, 2014, 07:32 AM - Edit history (1)

as in What Kind of A Society is evolving.

What kind of a People are we?

Is this the direction that we as a People, a Nation, want to go?

Is this really Progress?

If so, what exactly are we progressing toward ... ?

Are we evolving or devolving?

These types of questions.