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ismnotwasm

(42,443 posts)
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 12:07 AM Feb 2014

Telling a woman to shut up

Mary Beard has a long piece in the LRB about public speaking as definitional of manhood, and women’s exclusion from it as a result:


I want to start very near the beginning of the tradition of Western literature, and its first recorded example of a man telling a woman to ‘shut up’; telling her that her voice was not to be heard in public. I’m thinking of a moment immortalised at the start of theOdyssey…The process starts in the first book with Penelope coming down from her private quarters into the great hall, to find a bard performing to throngs of her suitors; he’s singing about the difficulties the Greek heroes are having in reaching home. She isn’t amused, and in front of everyone she asks him to choose another, happier number. At which point young Telemachus intervenes: ‘Mother,’ he says, ‘go back up into your quarters, and take up your own work, the loom and the distaff … speech will be the business of men, all men, and of me most of all; for mine is the power in this household.’ And off she goes, back upstairs​2.

There is something faintly ridiculous about this wet-behind-the-ears lad shutting up the savvy, middle-aged Penelope. But it’s a nice demonstration that right where written evidence for Western culture starts, women’s voices are not being heard in the public sphere; more than that, as Homer has it, an integral part of growing up, as a man, is learning to take control of public utterance and to silence the female of the species.

Another thing that’s interesting about it is that it had to be said. It’s interesting that Penelope wasn’t already confined to her quarters; that she dared to go downstairs in her own house, and wander into the great hall which was full of men. But perhaps it’s not interesting after all, if it’s there only to give Telemakhos the opportunity to boss her around.

What interests me is the relationship between that classic Homeric moment of silencing a woman and some of the ways women’s voices are not publicly heard in our own contemporary culture, and in our own politics from the front bench to the shop floor. It’s a well-known deafness that’s nicely parodied in the old Punch cartoon: ‘That’s an excellent suggestion, Miss Triggs. Perhaps one of the men here would like to make it.’​ I want to look too at how it might relate to the abuse that many women who do speak out are subjected to even now, and one of the questions at the back of my mind is the connection between publicly speaking out in support of a female logo on a banknote, Twitter threats of rape and decapitation, and Telemachus’ put-down of Penelope.
I think about that kind of thing all the time. I always have.


http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2014/02/telling-a-woman-to-shut-up/


Great piece. Worth the read.
14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Telling a woman to shut up (Original Post) ismnotwasm Feb 2014 OP
Returning to her distaff, she spun up the finest garotte Warpy Feb 2014 #1
Sometimes there's poison ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #2
honestly, I totally understand and get that desire but, Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #5
I think that's the point though ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #8
I understand, ism. I do .... what I am saying is this: Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #9
I think we will change ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #13
Yes. Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #14
As a practical matter Warpy Feb 2014 #12
Brilliant article. sufrommich Feb 2014 #3
thank you for this, ism. Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #4
SO MUCH good stuff in this. redqueen Feb 2014 #6
It's such an intelligent piece ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #7
I love that Candy Crowley has a show on CNN. CrispyQ Feb 2014 #10
Tina Fey had something interesting to say about men who get pissed off when women tell (instead of bettyellen Feb 2014 #11

Warpy

(113,130 posts)
1. Returning to her distaff, she spun up the finest garotte
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 03:21 AM
Feb 2014

and strangled him in his sleep that night.

That's how the story should end but it never seems to.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
5. honestly, I totally understand and get that desire but,
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 09:01 AM
Feb 2014

as a human species we need to quit internalizing and then reaching out to inflict pain because of what was said.

Penelope should have addressed her son immediately

and told him in no uncertain terms

that as his Mother she had every right to speak her mind and if he could not respect her voice

that there were other options that could and would be explored.

insert something here about:

I brought you into this world and I can take you out.

No disrespect intended here. Thoughts germinating not fully formed.

And YES, I totally understand the garotte and murder attitude. I go there a lot in my mind sometimes.

ismnotwasm

(42,443 posts)
8. I think that's the point though
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:26 AM
Feb 2014

Women have been systematically silenced for a very long time. It's in the bible. It's in other very old writings. I saw a post denying this yesterday saying something like "thousands of posts but they're complaining of being silenced"--- like DU MEANS anything in a larger context.

I believe out of the few hundred people who post here regularly--the MRA's (they're denying that too-- I think a few honestly don't know they're echoing MRA sentiments, but some clearly have the handbook) are somewhat disassociated from reality in that borderline personality way.

I mean how do you completely ignore history? Completely ignore it? Ignore current events when it comes to women's rights?

Or turn objections to having ones sexuality compared to a certain type of ape into a spurious argument about evolution, derailing into the argument until they say you're anti-evolution, constantly and consistently missing the point. You know, that could have been a great conversation. A fun one even. A productive one. Sadly I think those people have left DU, who would have smoothed it out. There's always been huge arguments, but not this consistent level of stupid. That's why I'm here less and less. (of course then I change my mind and say fuck em, they're libertarian or possibly RW moron trolls trying to set the the stage for the election.)

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
9. I understand, ism. I do .... what I am saying is this:
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:39 AM
Feb 2014

are we doomed to repeat history?

will we ever change?

Will we ever communicate openly, honestly, respectfully, kindly one to another?

The way that son totally disrespected his mother. My gawd.


and I am totally with you on ALL OF THIS

Or turn objections to having ones sexuality compared to a certain type of ape into a spurious argument about evolution, derailing into the argument until they say you're anti-evolution, constantly and consistently missing the point. You know, that could have been a great conversation. A fun one even. A productive one. Sadly I think those people have left DU, who would have smoothed it out. There's always been huge arguments, but not this consistent level of stupid. That's why I'm here less and less. (of course then I change my mind and say fuck em, they're libertarian or possibly RW moron trolls trying to set the the stage for the election.)

ismnotwasm

(42,443 posts)
13. I think we will change
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 05:03 PM
Feb 2014

I think not in this generation, not just yet. Not in my oldest daughters generation. But the young ones. the Steudenvilles aside, are being taught better, interact better.

My kids could care less who is gay or not. Color doesn't bother them, but one of my son in law's-- who moved from Southern California to a town 30 miles from Detroit had a learning experience and an epiphany. He went from using casual racist epithet's to understanding doing that was complete bullshit. He had never been around people of color and was quicker to learn than an older generation would be. My daughter's all know I'm a feminist, and that they were raised by a feminist. and that influences how they interact with society, the choices they they make for their children and how they teach them. We are making a difference. We just have to put up with a lot of shit for another generation or so.



You know how I love Sci-Fi-- not every story is a dystopia- some are what seem almost a natural progression, with gender as an afterthought or a plot device for romance. Sexually orientation doesn't matter either, nor does race. One auther, in one of his books will identify characters race, but will identify them as white as often as black-- in other words, doesn't use whiteness as the default. Pretty cool. Change is happening everywhere.
P

Warpy

(113,130 posts)
12. As a practical matter
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 04:12 PM
Feb 2014

If sons now told their mothers to shut up and tend to their silly little girly things, those mothers would deliver a meaty backhand that would have sonny boy eating through a straw for weeks.

I don't know why Penelope was portrayed as such a nothing, passive-aggressively putting off suitors until her lord and master came home. I suspect it was because the whole stupid business was written by a man.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
6. SO MUCH good stuff in this.
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 10:05 AM
Feb 2014
These attitudes, assumptions and prejudices are hard-wired into us: not into our brains (there is no neurological reason for us to hear low-pitched voices as more authoritative than high-pitched ones); but into our culture, our language and millennia of our history. And when we are thinking about the under-representation of women in national politics, their relative muteness in the public sphere, we have to think beyond what the prime minister and his chums got up to in the Bullingdon Club, beyond the bad behaviour and blokeish culture of Westminster, beyond even family-friendly hours and childcare provision (important as those are). We have to focus on the even more fundamental issues of how we have learned to hear the contributions of women or –going back to the cartoon for a moment –on what I’d like to call the ‘Miss Triggs question’. Not just, how does she get a word in edgeways? But how can we make ourselves more aware about the processes and prejudices that make us not listen to her.

...

Ironically the well-meaning solution often recommended when women are on the receiving end of this stuff turns out to bring about the very result the abusers want: namely, their silence. ‘Don’t call the abusers out. Don’t give them any attention; that’s what they want. Just keep mum,’ you’re told, which amounts to leaving the bullies in unchallenged occupation of the playground.


She is exactly right. This is radical feminism. We need millions more radical feminists attacking these primitive ideas, which are basically cultural infections.


It doesn’t help that so many women, especially women in professions that involve the voice, like acting and singing and broadcast journalism, talk in exaggeratedly babyish voices. It’s a fashion, and I wish it would stop being a fashion.


I agree with this so much. One of my major pet peeves.

ismnotwasm

(42,443 posts)
7. It's such an intelligent piece
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:01 AM
Feb 2014

I didn't pay attention to the "exaggerated babyish voices" but she's right. That's just strange when I think about it

CrispyQ

(38,166 posts)
10. I love that Candy Crowley has a show on CNN.
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 12:41 PM
Feb 2014

I thought this part was spot on:



It may not be a surprise that the same commentator who accused me of ‘whining’ claims to run a ‘small light-hearted’ competition for the ‘most stupid woman to appear on Question Time’. More interesting is another cultural connection this reveals: that unpopular, controversial or just plain different views when voiced by a woman are taken as indications of her stupidity. It’s not that you disagree, it’s that she’s stupid. ‘Sorry, love, you just don’t understand.’ I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been called ‘an ignorant moron’.



What an excellent piece.
 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
11. Tina Fey had something interesting to say about men who get pissed off when women tell (instead of
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 01:37 PM
Feb 2014

ask) them anything. That they haven't been forced to listen to women since they were boys bowing to their mother- and that they are still in essence, fighting to grow up.
She also had some amazing stories about producing and casting at SNL years ago, and Hollywood today- what a total boys club it was imagining no one wanted to see or hear women at all unless they were fuckable.

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