Why the Pick-Up Artist (PUA) subculture is so disgusting...

[YoungDemCA]

A few articles:

When I first learned about it, I was mostly just intrigued. I ended up learning a bunch about it. I read The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists (which I still think is a really interesting book) and ended up meeting a lot of people who were in the pick-up artist community (not a goal—it just happened).

I even ended up helping out with one of their weekend seminars, to be a "female test dummy," essentially. Far from the stereotype of sleazy guys who want one-night stands, 24 of the 25 guys in the class were just awkward, nerdy guys who just wanted a girlfriend (the 25th wanted to bring home a girl for a threesome with his girlfriend). But that's not the instruction of these classes. The classes are about getting laid, not getting a girlfriend.

snip:

PUA instruction turns awkward, nerdy guys who just want a girlfriend into creepy guys who harass and insult women. And that's not OK!

PUA instruction teaches guys these mechanical ways of interacting with women that don't really work and fails to recognize that every woman is different. Some women just won't go home with you. Sorry. Maybe she's out of your league. Or maybe she's just not interested in you. Or maybe she just doesn't go home with random dudes from bars.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/09/25/why_are_women_so_negative_about_the_pickup_artist_community_.html

The Pickup Artist diverse systems purport to be scientific, psychological theories, in the sense that they claim to provide empirically-testable claims about the nature of human sexuality. (Each variation of the system claims that using the techniques propounded by certain "pickup artists" is on average more effective than not using them in one's attempts to seduce women.) However, the claims of Pick Up Artists are not made in peer-reviewed psychological or social science journals, and central figures in the community such as Mystery and Neil Strauss have no formal training in psychology or the methodologies of the social sciences.

Professional psychologists who have examined one older Pick Up Artist technique referred to as Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), ridicule it as pseudo-science; psychiatrist Roderique Davis has called it a "cargo-cult psychology." Meanwhile psychiatrist Dr. Petra Boyman says that there is "no evidence of effectiveness" for any claims of Pickup Artists.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_artist#cite_note-10

And a post on a forum for disgruntled PUA men (a post from a guy, FWIW), as quoted in Jezebel:

You are desperately seeking this one thing: vagina, to the point where nothing else matters to you. The only thing that defines you is thrusting. You are animalistic, incapable of rational thought, future considerations. You are needy because you have nothing else going on in your life beside the pursuit of pussy. You are losers because the time you put into it does not reflect your results - otherwise you would be happy.

http://jezebel.com/5906648/the-angry-underground-world-of-failed-pickup-artists

In conclusion: The PUA subculture is full of assholes, misogynists, and sociopaths who prey on the insecurities of all-too many men, and lead them in a direction that is horrifyingly sexist and frankly, a perpetuation of rape culture.

It's actually OK to be socially awkward (contrary to PUA logic, I know...), you don't have to change yourself into something you're not, but it's never OK to be a creep or a sexist asshole.

So yeah...fuck off, PUA's and their apologists.

[seabeyond]

1. a man would have had a much better chance simply suggesting a one nighter than playing games.

lots of women are not opposed to a one nighter. lots recognize and reject the insulting, disrespectful, dishonest games.

i think what i see with pua, when our young guys are googlin, how to get a girl, a date, a girlfriend, (i have two teenage sons), they come up on this pua. i know that with my oldest, he was not confident, felt less physically when stepping into the dating scene. he also talked to me a lot. so instead of being fed you deserve, how to use and manipulate, he got more the confidence building talk. as he developed more in body, became accomplished in his sport thru his own effort, he gained confidence. and that was something we often talked about. not that girls were uninterested, but keeping self in background is keeping self off the shelf. and that knowledge and confidence, putting himself out there is what was helpful

but... pua does not teach these young guys anything about them self, and working on self in order to step ahead. they teach how to use and manipulate and at all cost.... do not think of her as a person. a thing to hit. and they have to pound that in cause if the guy thought of her as a person, the manipulation fails.

interesting.

thanks

[seabeyond]

2. so, i left off my conclusion.

sp then we condition these young men to think of the woman as a thing. which is not going to be successful and productive nor fulfilling for the. then they start hearing the "you deserve" often connected with "hot chick" and the start getting angry. hence, the escalation of misogyny in our world today, via the net. creating and guiding our young boys. throw in the degrading porn, and wowsers. who would be at all surprised witht he escalation of hate toward women.

[JI7]

13. yes, there are many women who prefer a one nighter

what i notice is guys who do the whole pua and look for other ways to impress women often attack women who do want a one nighter.

they start seeing the guy she was with as treating her badly and then they make assumptions about how women don't really want nice guys and other crap.

they make assumptions about how women are certain way and guys are certain ways.

when there are guys who prefer committed relationships and women who don't. and the other way around also.

[eridani]

28. Women looking for one night stands generally prefer safe venues

Polyamory group meetings, swingers' clubs, and such. The men who belong to such groups heavily police men who are newbies until they are sure that the new guys know how to behave properly. They know that if the venue gets a reputation of being unsafe, women will stay away and the party is over.

[On the Road]

3. "The PUA subculture is full of assholes, misogynists, and sociopaths..."

Based on the author's characterization of the PUA subculture and the attendence at the seminar, that would seem to be true for the trainers and those who buy into the whole subculture.

But by the authors' own account, none of the students fell into this category. It is possible that they all went on to become like the instructor, but seminars typically don't change people's nature or basic approach to the world.

[redqueen]

4. That's how I see it.

Any guy who didn't already feel, deep down, that he was somehow entitled to sex, would never listen to the shit those rape apologists spew.

[seabeyond]

5. ah, but these young men are constantly told they are exactly entitled to that, thru peers, media,

social media, sports, hollywood.....

i mean look, our football players are entitled to rape, along with our movie stars and political leaders.

[redqueen]

6. I don't give them a pass, then.

They're not shy, nerdy, awkward types... they're misogynist assholes.

I've met nerds and shy guys who aren't, so it's not like they just can't help but think that all women are vending machines that dispense sex.

[seabeyond]

7. not a pass.

no more than a pass our girls learning their value is in their looks. but, these things are so constantly fed to our children from birth in so many ways. and it is the repetitive challenging of these concept that are perceived as a reality, when the truth is, it is conditioned, learned, illusion.

as much as these kids know intellectually, be it our girls know their worth is not in their looks... ALL of society tells them otherwise. and though intellectually, our boys know htey are not entitled to sex simply because of their gender.... they are constantly told that is exactly what they are entitled to and it is wrapped up in their masculinity.

so.... they are aware. i still wonder how much is there. interfering, so easy to fall back on ect....

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. Society is feeding both boys and girls a load of crap. Sad.

Vicious Cycle.

Round and Round.

Serving it up Round The Clock.

Already seeing this with my 14 y/o nephew.

His FB page. Stuff he posts.

The Swagger. The Cool.

[seabeyond]

11. yup.

though.... i will say, parents have a lot more influence than peer or they believe. many parents do not even bothered cause they too are fed crap being told, dont bother cause you do not matter, htey kids listen to friends.

i didnt buy that raising my boys. not how i was with parents. and made clear to boys, that is not a reality, if one chooses it not to be.

lol lol. lots of feeding us to get us to veer away from our authentic self.

[redqueen]

18. I don't see it as the same at all.

One is about how you perceive yourself, the other is about feeling superior to and entitled to others.

[seabeyond]

22. while i was away there was a study, school age kids and how boys had more verbal, voice time.

how girls were much more interrupted by the boys.

these boys are not consciously doing this. they are not recognizing it is a matter of privilege they learned. it is very subtle and it is in all of how a boy is raised, in a culture and media that inundate them with this garbage. they can be a great voice for feminism and know in their heart women are equal and still, culture teaches in insidious manners. that male is superior. their voice more desirable, wanted, valued. and our girls, without thought learn that they are inferior.

i know i was reaching 20, when it hit me upside the head. i thought i was inferior to man in thinking and doing. i was not aware of it. then i became aware and pissed me the fuck off. it was not in my environment. i knew i could do anything. i knew i accomplished tons. i knew i was capable. but, it was a constant pounding from society that man was boss.

i am not explaining it well.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

25. maybe what you are trying to say in regards to what rq is saying

is that boys do not even realize what is happening or that it is wrong that it is happening.

to them = it just is what it is.

it is allowed to happen.

it is the status quo.

[Shivering Jemmy]

29. I really wish people wouldn't slag sociopaths

A sociopath is just a person with a particular kind of mind. Much like an autistic person.

Being a sociopath isn't bad in and of itself.

[redqueen]

30. If they abuse others they deserve it.

Just like pedophiles, these people know they have issues

If they get help and don't abuse others, great. Problem is, many of them do. It's the ones who don't get help, the ones who go along with their issues and hurt others that are being slagged.

[Shivering Jemmy]

31. I don't want to derail the thread

But I don't think sociopaths need help. Not feeling empathy isn't wrong or defective. Sometimes it can be a useful and helpful trait. But using the term sociopath as a term of abuse is a lot like calling someone a retard.

There are words one can use. If you mean someone is stupid say "stupid". Retard just beats down an entire class. If someone is a manipulative bastard call them that. No need to use the term sociopath.

No more on this from me. This is an important thread and I've sidetracked it enough.

[Squinch]

8. Such an important point: FIRST this "movement" is a scam against the men who pay

money to be "taught." It also hurts the men who buy into the PUA schtick by magnifying their self esteem problems: "I took this course that makes other guys successful in picking up women, and I STILL can't pick up a woman."

So, yes, it hurts women in the longer run by creating hostility toward women and feelings of entitlement among the men who listen to the PUA crap. But before it gets around to that, it hurts men.

And again, I say, men need to stop treating each other so badly.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. They need to quit building themselves Up by putting another Down. imo.

[Squinch]

12. But they also need to stop bestowing their respect on the

old definitions of manhood. These old definitions said that the guy who can subjugate the most people and the most resources through force is the leader.

Men teach each other in a million ways to aspire to that. This Pick Up Artist nonsense is just a symptom of that sickness. REALLY, it has very little to do with the women. It has a lot more to do with men aspiring to gain the recognition and admiration of other men by becoming people who are very talented at tricking and controlling women. Getting laid is just a byproduct. Building themselves up by putting another down, as you point out, is just another symptom of the sickness.

If men gave each other different messages, ones that respected different things than subjugating people and resources, the world would be a different place.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. Yes. The Admiration of Accomplishments needs to be redefined.

Admire someone for deeper/better/altruistic qualities than for someone's Alley Cat Prowess.

[Squinch]

15. The admiration of actual accomplishments would be great!

What have you built? What have you created? Who have you helped?

Rather than, what team are you on and is it the winner? what car do you drive? how many women have you slept with? do all the other guys at work fear and obey you? can you hold your own in a fight with the other kid? is your girlfriend the hottest? is your second wife the "trophy-est"?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. How did you help save the planet today? What did you to do recycle/reuse/reclaim?

What did you do in class today? What books have you read? What kind of music do you like? Can you help tutor someone in math or science?

So much awesome in this world.

[Squinch]

17. And it's just fine to like "My Little Pony." Did you read about that utter tragedy?

That's part of this too.

[redqueen]

19. What tragedy is that? nt

[Squinch]

20. Don't read it if you want to have a nice night:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014718304

[redqueen]

21. This fucking stupidass gender madness has to end. NOW.

[Squinch]

23. I know. But we both know it's going to take longer than that.

If there were a "sad hug" smilie, I'd use it here.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. of course, it is Just Fine to absolutely Love My Little Pony ...

Love is Always OK.

that was tragic. yes.

[NuclearDem]

26. Speaking of PUA...

http://firecasting.com/ipn/0m

More Jamie Kilstein win.