A gay man calls out misogyny in gay male subculture

[BainsBane]

A really fascinating article. I've picked four paragraphs from different parts of the piece, but you really need to read it all.

It's a dirty secret of a subculture of the gay male world about women: That they're essentially unwelcome, unless they come to us as a Real Housewife, a pop diva, or an Tony award winner–or an unassuming fag hag. To anyone just coming out of the closet and hoping to get his bearings in the gay male community, the attitude towards women is simple: They are just objects whose function is to serve gay men. Maybe it happens when gay men get too comfortable in newly-discovered safe spaces–where they get to call the shots as their proudly out new selves. Or maybe it happens through cultural conditioning. Whatever the cause is, it becomes clear: If there isn't any kind of transactional exchange happening, then women lose their value in gay male subcultures. . . .

I used to have a best friend of over 20 years who had taken to calling his closest girlfriends the b-word and that c-word regularly. He had taken to screaming at them and insulting their bodies. When prodded about his disrespect, he'd dismiss it as humor. "God, can't you take a joke?" would be one of his favorite refrains. I say, "I used to," because sometimes you have to draw a line about who you keep in your life and who you don't. I couldn't stand to be around this kind of language any longer. Because as gay men, we actually have to find ways to empathize with our female friends, not use them as props to boost our own self-worth. It turns out even gay men objectify women–but dismiss such thoughts on the basis of their sexual orientation. Guys, no. "But, I'm gay!" can't be your excuse for anything, not in a world where entire industries now make concerted efforts to court our demographics. . . .

So many of us are only familiar with the idea of male privilege being the province of straight men that we discount how gay men are able to exert dominance and control over women. We may forget this because much of American history has painted gay men as victims–and as gay men, many of us blithely buy into this narrative even if it isn't our own personal history, because it allows us an easy way to assimilate to the larger gay male culture. Only in the last decade has gay male identity become accepted into casual discourse–and normalized into our cultural diet. Before we dive too deep into this, it's careful to delineate that for the purposes of this piece, "gay men" is a subjective, if imprecise lumping of all such men. It's not a static grouping of such men–it's a cluster that even included me for a time.. . .

For example, in 2010, Project Runway judge and fashion designer Isaac Mizrahi grabbed Scarlet Johansson's breasts on the Golden Globes Red Carpet. When she looked visibly mortified, he retorted that he's gay so it's okay. Not so by her count. But when he acts so intrusively with little to no consequences, it sends a message to gay men who are still negotiating their identities and attempting to figure out how to fit into a world that still hasn't found a way to reconcile queer identity completely.

Over at The Good Men Project, Yolo Akili writes:

At a recent presentation, I asked all of the gay male students in the room to raise their hand if in the past week they touched a woman's body without her consent. After a moment of hesitation, all of the hands of the gay men in the room went up. I then asked the same gay men to raise their hand if in the past week they offered a woman unsolicited advice about how to "improve" her body or her fashion. Once again, after a moment of hesitation, all of the hands in the room went up.

So you have young gay men witnessing Mizrahi's behavior; "I'm gay" gets handed down as an acceptable excuse for gay men to probe and disrespect women's bodies. It's endemic of a gay male culture that would sooner trot out a history of being victimized as an excuse for acting like assholes rather than taking ownership for said behavior, or better yet, correcting that kind of behavior.

http://jezebel.com/the-myth-of-the-fag-hag-and-dirty-secrets-of-the-gay-ma-1506868402?rev=1390680196&utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_facebook&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[hollysmom]

1. to the best of my knowledge that is not true in my relationships, but then I

am more of a mother figure to most guys gay or straight now. Most of the older guys I knew have died or retired and moved, so don't have that much exposure to any older men now, ha ha But I seriously dislike Mizrahi.

[BainsBane]

2. I've only experienced a bit of this in real life

I don't recall my gay male friends ever touching my body without my permission, but the fashion advice was common. Of course I have known gay men who don't like women, but they were more acquaintances than friends.

I do remember the couple of times I went with friends to gay male bars that the environment was far from welcoming. I suppose that's one of the reasons why I always liked lesbian bars better.

I have to say I've seen examples of some of this behavior online where some men invoke their sexual orientation in order to excuse sexism and misogyny.

[geek tragedy]

3. the brush seems overly broad here

are there gay men who are misogynists? of course, just like there are homophobic women.

I assume that the gay men I see on television are no more representative of the gay community than I do for straight people. the ones I know in real life aren't misogynists.

but, being straight and male, maybe my privilege prevents me from seeing stuff going on beneath the surface.

[BainsBane]

4. Considering the author is himself a gay man

I don't think he's say everyone is like that as much as there are broad cultural trends in gay male subculture, just as there are among men generally. I don't see this as any different from calling out the cultural influences of patriarchy, only he is exploring an area that is often overlooked.

[geek tragedy]

5. very possibly, but i'm always suspicious of cultural pieces that

are based on television footage.

the patriarchy oppresses both groups, and support for feminism and GLBT rights are highly predictive of one another, and feminists and GLBT activists tend to be allies a lot more than they tend to be opponents.

also, the nature of a subculture is going to be that those representing the larger culture may be viewed with some caution--query whether it's women being resented as women, or because they represent an intrusion of the larger heteronormative culture.

[redqueen]

6. It's not just based on television footage. nt

[BainsBane]

10. How do they know the women are straight?

They don't. All they know is they are female. In fact, I don't recall the sexual orientation of the women being discussed at all in the article.

To say gay men can't practice sexism is like saying working-class white men don't benefit from privilege because they aren't wealthy.

[geek tragedy]

16. obviously gay men can be sexist and practice sexism, I certainly

did not mean to imply they can't.

[pnwmom]

22. And so can lesbians.

I used to spend a lot of time on a private message board for the children of gay parents. There were people who had gay fathers who would say very negative things about women. But there were also young men whose mother's friends would make global and negative statements about males in front of boys (it was usually the mothers' friends rather than the mothers themselves).

If people are going to have kids, whether they're gay or straight, they should work out their issues with the opposite sex, if they have them, so it doesn't hurt their kids.

[pnwmom]

18. I don't think the author is accusing all gay men of acting this way.

But he is saying that SOME gay men think that being gay gives them a free pass on behaviors toward women that wouldn't be acceptable if straight men did them.

And it doesn't. It's not okay, for example, for a gay man to grab Scarlet Johannson's boobs anymore than if he were straight. It doesn't matter that a gay man doesn't get sexual thrills from doing so -- what matters is the woman's feeling of being assaulted, and that is the same whether the groper is straight or gay.

[redqueen]

7. I'm really glad to see this.

It's been a long time coming.

[cinnabonbon]

8. I knew that already, but the article is a very good read.

There seems to be a subset of them that thinks that because they're oppressed for being gay, they suddenly don't have male privilege anymore. So you get charming quotes like "ewwww, vaginas! Gross." in LGBT spaces.

So you have young gay men witnessing Mizrahi's behavior; "I'm gay" gets handed down as an acceptable excuse for gay men to probe and disrespect women's bodies.

I really REALLY dislike this trend.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. why can't human beings treat other human beings with a modicaum of respect, a tiny amount

of kindness, with a dash of good manners thrown in for good measure? Why is it so hard to do this?

[uppityperson]

11. Every geoup has its jerks, but please do not blame everyone in a group for the actions of

the jerks. There are gay men and lesbians as well as heteros and women and men and people in all groups who are jerks to others.

To extrapolate that to the whole group is rarely accurate.

[BainsBane]

12. Firstly, the author is a gay man. He isn't blaming anyone.

He is observing certain cultural tendencies. Bigotry isn't something that is practiced only by some "jerks." It is endemic and part of the cultural messaging all of us are raised with. Either we examine and confront those messages or we continue to perpetrate them. People are anxious to externalize bigotry by blaming Republicans, Southerners, etc. What few are willing to do is reflect on how it influences all of us. Until all of us do that, nothing changes.

[uppityperson]

13. Are you saying all gay men are misogynistic? Or that it is a "cultural tendency" of gay men to

be so? I hope you are not, as you put it, anxious to externalize bigotry to all gay men?

And I hope know about me that I rarely broadbrush and I do agree that there are too many "ism"s so prevalant in our culture that it is difficult to see them and address them.

ETA, I apologize for using the word blame as that is not what I meant. I meant do not claim everyone in a group has the same actions of the jerks, do not say everyone in the group of gay men holds the same attitudes as they do not. I am not sure if this is proper wording either, am writing on the fly, tired and at work.

[BainsBane]

14. No, I am saying we live in a sexist, racist and homophobic culture

and all of us internalize some of those messages. It is inevitable. Either we examine them as a way to challenge them and improve ourselves or pretend we are above it all and perpetuate the problem.

The broadbrush term misses the entire point of the article. No where does he say all gay men are misogynists. He says that gay men tend to see themselves as exempt from sexism and misogyny, which he sees as mistaken. He then goes on to explore certain cultural tendencies that devalue women.

The article is cultural analysis. It is no different from examining racism in society. Does that mean all white people are overtly racist? No. But racism is endemic to our culture and frames a whole range of institutions and interactions. Sexism operates similarly. Gay men are no more immune to sexism than straight men or women of any sexual orientation.

You seem to think bigotry perpetrated by only a few "jerks." If that were the case, it would not be so pervasive. It is structural and cultural phenomenon that we all share in to one extent or another. Anyone raised in a culture structured around hierarchy such as our own cannot help but absorb classist, racist, sexist, and homophobic messages. The issue is what do we do about it? Do we examine and confront them? Or do we pretend it's not a problem and allow the status quo to continue? Everyone has to make his or her own choice.

[uppityperson]

15. Thanks for the clarification. Bigotry is so ingrained many do not recognize it most of the time.

I remember someone being taken aback when I said I was prejudiced, I prejudge people based on how they look, where they are, how they act, etc. But recognizing that is the first step in being able to counter it.

It would be nice if people would simply treat each other as people, civilly, without all that other stuff. Recognizing we are all different and having that be expected, not just ok.

[pnwmom]

20. Yes! There is this view that gay people are too enlightened to be sexist,

when actually gay people are just as imperfect as anyone else. And some gay people are even capable of misogyny and sexism.

My dad was always patting himself on the back for being a huge feminist with three daughters. And yet he was capable of sexism as blatant as any straight man. For example, he told me not to raise my hand in school or the boys wouldn't like me! He critiqued my body in a way my husband would NEVER critique our daughter's (I would kill him if he did -- but he never would have, anyway, because he loves her too much). Just because he was gay didn't make my dad immune from the effects of a culture that routinely puts women in their place.

[pnwmom]

27. Where are you getting that? That's not what the poster is saying, or the article in the OP.

The article merely is saying that the gay men who do behave badly with women and think that being gay excuses bad behavior are wrong. A gay man is no more entitled to grope straight women than straight men are. A gay man is no more entitled to objectify women than straight men are. Which is -- not at all.

But some gay men who behave this way think that no one can ever accuse them of sexism or misogyny, even though the exact same behavior by a straight man would be condemned.

[pnwmom]

19. Who is extrapolating this to the whole group? It's written by a gay man

who is criticizing the behavior of certain gay individuals who think they can behave inappropriately with women because they are gay. But they're wrong.

I think there is less of this behavior than there was 30 years ago, but it still exists. And I'm glad this writer is getting the misogyny that does exist out in the open.

[uppityperson]

23. Start by looking at the title of the thread. "gay male subculture".

I am simply saying there is no one "gay male subculture" but a lot of different ones.

Yes, criticize bigotry wherever you find it. Work at overcoming it. That is my point. Criticize those individuals. But to say it is "gay male subculture" is broadbrushing and, in itself, bigotry.

Individuals, yes.

[pnwmom]

25. I guess we're reading that differently. I read that as "a subculture of the larger gay community."

You apparently thought it meant that the whole gay community IS the subculture that was referred to.

[BainsBane]

26. Even if it did, that is not the same as saying "all gay men are misogynsits"

anymore than an article on "Racism in American culture" would mean all Americans are racist. The author's argument seems quite clear to me. Why people refuse to understand it, I can't begin to imagine.

[pnwmom]

17. Do you know why this article got locked in GD? n/t

[BainsBane]

21. It looks like the OP was PPR'd

I don't recall the person's name, so I haven't been able to look up the tombstone note. It was a fairly new member with less than 100 posts.

[uppityperson]

24. infovirio, here is their profile link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=311011

[uppityperson]

34. FWIW, if anyone is interested, it was a caver

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=94230.0

[pnwmom]

36. I see the poster was. Not the writer of the article, though,

and I think the writer made some legitimate points that are worthy of discussion. A gay male isn't any more entitled than a straight male to manhandle a woman or make disparaging comments about her or her sexuality.

And yet some clearly think they are, and think that they're gay excuses the bad behavior. But just because a man isn't sexually titillated by groping a woman doesn't entitle him to do so.

[uppityperson]

37. I agree, just thought some might be interested in seeing who posted that and was banned

since interest was expressed as to why the gd thread was locked.

[redqueen]

28. I was going to say that the resistance to discussing this issue is bizarre.

But it really isn't, especially not on DU.

It's good that plenty of our allies elsewhere keep bringing it up. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Anyway, I posted this link elsewhere but thought I'd post it here too.
http://www.wbez.org/blogs/nico-lang/2013-01/gay-male-misogyny-goes-viral-college-humor-and-war-women%E2%80%99s-bodies-104791

[Ms. Toad]

29. Behavior like this is why I spend virtually no time in the LGBT group here.

The last time I tried to discuss the mysogynistic behavior I was encountering there, I was called a man hater. The post was hidden, but there was a pile on by many people who were hosts of the group. I pointed out that if someone in GD had called a lesbian a man-hater that they would be all over it, but that they had take no action to protect me in the LGBT safe space and many of them had, in fact, piled on. Their response was, "The post was hidden. We're not going to do anything else." Eventually they did ban the poster from the LGBT group. But I had some private communications with (then) hosts who shared some of the equally mysogynistic comments which had been directed at me by other hosts in the discussion about whether they needed to respond to the clearly unacceptable anti-lesbian slam within the LGBT group because I had dared to suggest that the LGBT group (at the time posting regular beefcake threads) did not feel very welcoming to me, as a lesbian..

In this case it was deliberate (because I was pointing it out and it not only continued, but increased). In other cases I really think those engaging in it are clueless.

And in places which make an intentional effort to be a safe space for all genders, it happens far less frequently. I hope we're moving in that direction.

[redqueen]

30. That whole situation is disturbing.

... private communications with (then) hosts who shared some of the equally mysogynistic comments which had been directed at me by other hosts in the discussion about whether they needed to respond to the clearly unacceptable anti-lesbian slam...

That part is just downright alarming.

[Ms. Toad]

32. The entire incident was disturbing.

Here's the thread, with the hidden post at #45. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1137&pid=13331

[seaglass]

31. I'm glad you spoke out, I remember that situation and believe you had support from other women

in the feeling of being unwelcome and that is too bad.

From my DU experience it seems silly to pretend that gay males can't be sexist - I mean Pab got banned from DU for being a misogynist not too long ago.

That being said, in my personal experiences with gay male friends I didn't experience any sexism - we were friends and equals, no derogatory names or unwanted groping.

I did once go to a gay nightclub with one of my friends years ago and one of the rooms of the club had a comedian whose routine was all about putting down women, some of the things he said were really hateful. I never considered that some gay men do not like women as people until then, I still think it is a minority and that sexism from straight males is much more common.

[Ms. Toad]

33. Yes. I had support from other women,

and from a few men, as well.

I have many gay male friends -and most of them are very aware of the potential for mysogyny, and try to avoid it - and when called on it usually respond very thoughtfully.

But I choose to hang out with gay men who are involved in intentionally inclusive communities. Some of those communities have taken a lot of work to move toward being inclusive - in one instance, the women in the group locking ourselves away from the men until they were willing to work on their sexism (this was nearly 3 decades ago). We putting in place community rules to make the community a welcoming place for all of us. Ironically, or perhaps not so, when we were challenged to be more inclusive of bi and trans* individuals later, some of those rules we put in place had to yield to make the group more inclusive for the next less privileged group we wanted to include.

Being inclusive takes work - Homogeneous groups tend toward the dominant norms of the members of the group, and heterogeneous groups tend toward the dominant norms of the dominant subgroup. That's why mixed LGBT spaces (or strictly male GBT spaces) are often really uncomfortable for women, unless those groups work intentionally to be inclusive. I understand the dynamic. What pissed me off on DU was the insistence that I was imagining it, and the real anger that was at the foundation of a lot of the posts directed at me for suggesting that the LGBT space on DU didn't feel very welcoming to me - specifically as a woman.

[BainsBane]

35. I've heard that many lesbians feel unwelcome there

Even the use of the terms gay and heteronormative on this site are male-centric.

[uppityperson]

39. How do you mean? I thought f/m terminology had split into xommon useage of

lesbian/gay. I am trying to understand what you mean here. Thanks.

[BainsBane]

40. Do you mean the part about gay and heteronormative?

For example, someone recently posted a thread about the homophobic policies in Russia. A poster made a really offensive remark, under the excuse of quoting George Carlin, "more p...y for me." The only way homosexuality creates "more p...y" for him is by ignoring the fact gay women exist. People may use the term "gay" to refer to men, but LGBT and heteronormative are not supposed to mean men only. But the fact is for many they do.

I've noticed that when I post something related to women, I occasionally get accused of being heteronormative because whatever I've written doesn't account for gay men. In some cases these are straight men who hate seeing anything that focuses on women and invoke the term heteronormativity as an excuse for why women don't matter. In others, there is a simple assumption that gay, LGBT, and heteronormativity means gay male homosexuality. I see that on the part of both gay and straight men. It is sometimes used to shut down discussions of and even legitimate sexism. Someone expresses concern about some form of exploitation against women, whether rape, domestic violence, or porn, they are accused of being heteronormative. In all of these cases, women are the subjects/objects about 90% of the time, and men about the other 10%. That 90% of women includes both gay and straight. That a woman is raped by a man or is the object of male-female porn does not mean she is straight. That I post about women doesn't mean I don't know or care that men are also victims. Rather, I have an interest in women's issues, and since I'm a woman that is my own experience. The charge of heteronomativity in such circumstances assumes homosexuality itself is about gay men exclusively, as though lesbians don't exist or aren't included in general discussions of women, something I never assume.

The problem is some men cannot abide the fact that anyone but themselves be the center of focus. Their sense of privilege is so absolute, the existence of issues that concern another gender is entirely trivial. What these people really are saying is that you are talking about women, who aren't worth shit. We don't want to hear about it so keep your second-class trap shut. That message is louder on the internet that anywhere else.

[uppityperson]

41. yes, thank you. That post was jury hidden, 6-0 as it should have been.It was both

offensive and idiotic as you wrote.

I guess I always see LGBT as the whole gammet, assume others do also. Also I see it refered to as LGBT on DU vs GLBT, putting female first which is also interesting.

I wish people would understand that discussing an issue about (pick a gender or orientation, different things I am quite aware, just being inclusive) does not mean a different whatever does not also have issues. I see too often on forums the jumping to conclusions and accusing rather than considering the topic. I hope I am making sense, am distracted but wnted to reply.

I agree that the internet is an easy place to play asshole, excuse me, jerk, and/or victim, with anonymous snarking being a prime goal. Makes it difficult at times, I've needed to learn to ignore many of those mosquitoes buzzig around looking for attention.

[BainsBane]

42. Actually the post I'm thinking of wasn't hidden

I believe it was 3-3 to stay. (I think someone told me that). It seems that same comment appeared more than once.

[pnwmom]

38. It is also not a safe place for children of gays to post on sensitive issues.

I have had support there from women, but nastiness from men who cannot accept that gay people, like all people, are imperfect, that some gay people do have issues with the opposite sex, and that a parent's negativity toward the opposite sex might be harmful to their children .

I had heard of this experience so often on a private message board for adult children that I thought parents might want to know about it, but it seems they don't -- not men at least. Some even objected to the idea that the straight children of gays should feel that we are a part of the "community" at all -- as if the families we grow up in have no affect on our identity.