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Lionel Mandrake

(4,116 posts)
Sat Oct 1, 2022, 04:52 PM Oct 2022

marginalization of astrology

During the seventeenth century astrology became disreputable. It ceased to be studied in the universities. The upper classes came to despise it. I've often wondered how this came about. It certainly had something to do with Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, and Newton. To those who agreed that the earth orbits the sun and revolves on its axis in 24 hours, there was no longer any need for a crystalline sphere to carry the fixed stars. Those stars had fixed positions and could be at various distances from us. The stars in any particular constellation are not physically close to each other. The idea that a constellation exerts any influence on people is not even plausible. Thus astrology deserved the disrepute into which it had fallen by the time of Newton.

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marginalization of astrology (Original Post) Lionel Mandrake Oct 2022 OP
Well, yes. Yes it did. Croney Oct 2022 #1
A big, fat K&R! CaliforniaPeggy Oct 2022 #2
ah yup.... bahboo Oct 2022 #3
Although I don't believe in the scam of astrology, I wouldn't 100% discount the possibility Hugh_Lebowski Oct 2022 #4
there have been many scientific studies on astrology DBoon Oct 2022 #5
Possibly the earliest such study was done by Tycho Brahe. Lionel Mandrake Oct 2022 #11
The reasons for its demise may be uncertain. Jim__ Oct 2022 #6
Interesting. Lionel Mandrake Oct 2022 #12
The "what's your sign?" stuff is pure hooey Warpy Oct 2022 #7
Try the Multigrain Theory of Diarrhea. multigraincracker Oct 2022 #8
And at least 1 zodiac lies, I tells ya. GreenWave Oct 2022 #9
The Truth About Reading Horoscopes bobnicewander Oct 2022 #10
 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
4. Although I don't believe in the scam of astrology, I wouldn't 100% discount the possibility
Sat Oct 1, 2022, 05:39 PM
Oct 2022

that the environment into which one is born, and the availability of various nutrients during pregnancy could perhaps influence some personality traits.

It wouldn't be 'magic', it would be chemistry and physics.

And I think, to the extent it MIGHT be true, it would've been seen hundreds of years ago, but nowadays I don't believe it for a second, not in the 1st world anyway.

But I think there's some chance when you were born may've 'mattered' in primitive times, or maybe even now in places where people are exposed to the elements, don't have steady food supplies, etc.

The 'stars' have absolutely nothing to do with the phenomenon, though, if it actually is a thing.

DBoon

(22,900 posts)
5. there have been many scientific studies on astrology
Sat Oct 1, 2022, 05:55 PM
Oct 2022

and none have shown any effect of the planets and stars on human fortune.

(excluding the fortune of Elon Musk perhaps)

Lionel Mandrake

(4,116 posts)
11. Possibly the earliest such study was done by Tycho Brahe.
Sat Oct 1, 2022, 11:59 PM
Oct 2022

Tycho wanted to test the supposed influence of the stars on the weather, which was part of the "as above, so below" belief. He found that there was no correlation between the two kinds of phenomena.

Jim__

(14,351 posts)
6. The reasons for its demise may be uncertain.
Sat Oct 1, 2022, 05:59 PM
Oct 2022

Here's an article, with multiple links, that claims that the reasons for the loss of the respectability of astrology vary from country to country. For instance, it claims that the reason for this loss in Britain, was that during the English Revolution, puritan astrologers were more accurate than royalist astrologers, and so, upon restoration of the monarchy, astrology fell into disrepute. Of course, I can't attest to the accuracy of any of the claims in the article, but it claims the reasons are both multiple and uncertain.

An excerpt from the column The Renaissance Mathematicus:

...

Astrology entered the world of higher education with humanism at the end of the 14th century. The main driving force was the rise of astro-medicine derived from newly available texts from the Hippocratic corpus. In the 15th century humanist university in Italy and famously in Krakow established chairs for astrology and throughout the next two hundred and fifty years nearly all European universities offered Astrology 101 for medical students taught by the professor for mathematics. Nearly all of the leading Renaissance mathematicians were practicing astrologers, many of them court astrologers. Even Galileo, a practicing astrologer, routinely taught Astro 101 during his tenure as professor for mathematics in Padua. This is not to say that astrology was without its critics, the most extensive criticism of astrology being written by the humanist scholar Giovanni Pico della Mirandola (1463 – 1494), his Disputationes adversus astrologiam divinatricem, which contains all of the standard arguments against astrology still in use today.

Astrology continued to thrive well into the 17th century but went into a steep decline from about 1650. The big question is why? In general histories of science and cultural histories the standard answer, if they deal with the question at all, is that the new heliocentric astronomy killed off astrology as an academic discipline. This is completely false as any superficial examination of the historical facts immediately shows. As I wrote in an earlier post, Robert Westman famously wrote that there were only ten Copernicans in the entire world between the publication of the De revolutionibus in 1543 and the beginning of the 17th century and as a historian of astrology correctly pointed out all ten of them were practicing astrologers. Although Kepler, whose heliocentric system was the one that came to be accepted, rejected traditional horoscope astrology as it was practiced in his own times he believed deeply in celestial influence and wrote extensively about his own attempts to create a reformed astrology. So how are we to explain the loss of status of astrology in the 17th century?

The answer lies in another aspect of the scientific revolution. The Renaissance belief in astrology was based on the micro-cosmos macro-cosmos theory or as above so below. This theory said that the world of the heaven or celestial sphere is reflected in the normal world or terrestrial sphere and that the ability to read the one enabled predictions in the other. This philosophy was inherited from Greek philosophy and was also present in the interpretation of Aristotle that dominated mediaeval philosophy. As Aristotle was replaced as the foundation of natural philosophy by the new scientific philosophy of the 17th century and disappeared out of the academic realm the micro-cosmos macro-cosmos theory also lost its foothold in academia and with it astrology. Although this process was general throughout Europe it would appear that the reasons for the final loss of respectability for astrology varied from country to country. This has been researched in some countries, such as Britain, but not in others, such as Germany.

In Britain the English Revolution, or Civil War, played a major role in the demise of astrology. In the decades leading up to the English Revolution the social status of astrology was very strong and there was even a Society of Astrologers in London, which boasted many members of the intellectual elite amongst its supporters, such as Elias Ashmole and John Evelyn. During the Revolution astrologers on both sides used their reputations and supposed skills to make war propaganda for their troops, predicting victories and losses that were written in the stars. Following the restitution of the monarchy astrology fell into disrepute because the puritan astrologers had been more successful than the royalist ones. The Society of Astrology was also suspected as being a secret puritan organisation and so the members dissolved the society to remove the suspicion. The fashions in medicine also changed throughout the 16th and 17th century and by 1700 at the latest astro-medicine was out and Astro 101 was no longer part of the university curriculum.

...

Lionel Mandrake

(4,116 posts)
12. Interesting.
Sun Oct 2, 2022, 12:20 AM
Oct 2022

The author states: "the standard answer ... is that the new heliocentric astronomy killed off astrology as an academic discipline. This is completely false as any superficial examination of the historical facts immediately shows." The author tries to back up this statement with an argument I find unconvincing. I suspect "the standard answer" is partly correct if incomplete for any particular country.

Warpy

(112,782 posts)
7. The "what's your sign?" stuff is pure hooey
Sat Oct 1, 2022, 06:12 PM
Oct 2022

but there might once have been clear differences in children born at various times of the year. Winter and spring babies were born into scarcity while summer and fall children were born into plenty, and early nutrition might have had quite a lot to do with how they developed as they grew up.

Or not. We've gotten better at eating well all year long so there are few ways to study it that don't involve cruelty.

bobnicewander

(888 posts)
10. The Truth About Reading Horoscopes
Sat Oct 1, 2022, 09:45 PM
Oct 2022

For those who have little or no knowledge of astrology (and for many who do) - there is no way to know what any aspect may coordinate with. Think about the horoscopes of multiple birth siblings - twins, triplets, etc.. They have virtually the same charts (as we say in astrology) but not the same experiences at the same time - getting married, having babies, suffering major injuries or illnesses and on and on. The marriage of one is a happy experience shared by all in some manner but no astrologer, without inside information, could say which one it would be or even name the event looking at the charts perhaps 3 years before. All that could really be seen in them would likely be a positive or easy or happy time experienced.

That is why there have been no astrologers, no matter how famous, that can be shown to have a string of exact predictions despite the great number of practitioners through thousands of years. If anybody thinks differently I have a chart covering almost 82 years (in January) and would like them to prove their case by telling me what exactly occurred when and where I experienced even 1 aspect in my life.

I can determine when tRump may experience difficult times but as to what event it may coordinate with if any is known about (because we experience some things on a psychological level which we may not share with anyone and/or on a cellular level like when a tumor is growing that we ourselves do not know about) the best that might be done is to get in the ballpark or get lucky with our guess based on some knowledge [like the date and time of a court appearance] and get it right.

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