The Sacrament of Matrimony

[Cartoonist]

Any questions?

[trotsky]

1. "...let no man put asunder"

So women can decide if a marriage should end, then? Seems fair.

[Ohiogal]

2. I remember being in CCD class

and they made us parrot answers to questions. I remember the one "what is the purpose of the sacrament of marriage?" and the answer we were taught was "so that the married couple's children can go to Heaven."

[Major Nikon]

3. My grandmother always said it's just the 2nd kid that takes 9 months

The first can come at any time.

[3catwoman3]

4. Lots of 7+ pound...

...7 month “preemies” back then.

[hunter]

5. That would be my parents and my wife's parents.

After they were married (and only after...) they got down to having children quick as they could and were praised for it.

Our parents became supporters of birth control once they realized there wasn't any more room for children in the family station wagons, and this was in the days before car seats for infants and toddlers, or even seat belts.

Buying back-to-school clothes was also pretty awful. Our choices as children were extremely limited, no name-brand fashions, and younger siblings wore a lot of hand-me-downs, nevertheless my dad's Sears card still wouldn't be paid off by Christmas.

We ate simple. We shared bedrooms and bathrooms. We ran out of hot water.

My mom is a "choose life" sort but taught my siblings and I about sex and birth control before it mattered to us. She was also prepared that some of us might bring accidental babies home, which none of us did because we all knew about dirty diapers, etc., and it was bad enough sharing rooms with siblings. (I was changing the diapers of siblings when I was ten.)

Among all my wife's and my siblings we haven't had many biological children, zero, one, two, or three, the overall average less than two, and none we weren't well prepared to support.

My wife and I had a Big Catholic Wedding, along with the mandatory Engagement Encounter beforehand. At the Engagement Encounter there was an earnest married couple to explain natural family planning as accepted by the Church. They faced a tough crowd. I may have noticed some eyes rolling and couples whispering to one another with bemused expressions.

Any thoughtful person will comprehend there are already too many people on earth, so many people that we are destroying the natural environment of this planet, such that honest and realistic sex education and easy access to birth control is a necessity.

Any thoughtful person can also see beyond "God instituted marriage when He created Eve for Adam." LGBT exist, they have always existed, and their committed relationships deserve to be respected and celebrated the same as anyone else.

If you're looking for people with abusive sexual relationships and/or horrible marriages you'll find them within authoritarian fundamentalist religious institutions.

Something most people don't understand about the Catholic Church is that it's not a monolithic institution, it can be authoritarian in authoritarian communities, and liberal in liberal communities. In Mexico it is very Mexican, in Ireland it is very Irish. The same is true even within the U.S.A.. Fascist communities have fascist churches, liberal communities have liberal churches.

My mom is a California Governor Jerry Brown sort of Catholic intellectual, but she's been at war with the authoritarian misogynistic aspects of the church her entire adult life.

[Cartoonist]

6. Nice post

Thanx for chiming in.

[trotsky]

7. "the Catholic Church (is not) a monolithic institution"

But here's the deal - it portrays itself as such, AND enjoys that privilege precisely because the Catholics in Mexico, Ireland, the US, Europe, all officially count as Catholics. It's great your mom rejected its outdated and harmful policies on contraception, but her membership in and financial support of the RCC enables them to fight around the world against access to birth control (among many other things).

Pardon the comparison, but it's like saying "Hey my dad might be in the KKK, but his chapter doesn't hate black people at all."

The better solution here is to quit the group, IMO.

[hunter]

8. I am a dangerous person within the church and within my nation.

In any case my mom, since you mentioned her, imagined she'd be a Dorothy Day social justice warrior nun until an unfortunate/fortunate encounter with a hard drinking, chain smoking, leering priest.

The experience disturbed her so much she started dating, and met my dad.

After my mom married my dad she continued to distance herself from her childhood vision of Catholic Saintliness and became a Jehovah's Witness.

Out of the frying pan into the fire of obsessive religiosity.

But she couldn't keep out of politics, especially Daniel Berrigan inspired ant-war politics, so the Witnesses kicked her out, literally bouncers at the door style.

Then we were Quakers.

I never paid any attention to the flag salute in school, I'd sit quietly at my desk reading or drawing space ships. Nor did I pray in mixed company. Doing either of those things would buy a person a ticket to hell. Praying around the flagpole before school would have bought an express ticket to hell . (Are certain Christians still doing that? It seems the worst sort of idolatry, but then they voted for Trump as well.)

Things got really strange for me after I quit high school. At one point I was living in my car in a church parking lot. Several good people tried to save me but I refused them. I also survived a David Lynch version of My Big Fat Greek Wedding. Thankfully we never got so far as the actual wedding and broke up when I jumped out of her moving car and left a lot of my skin and blood on the streets of Berkeley California.

My ancestors were Wild West. Previously they were European religious and political dissidents of various sorts who landed in America and hit the ground running into the wilderness. They were not seeking any particular opportunity so much as escaping whatever hell was brewing in their native lands.

My last immigrant ancestor was a mail order bride to Salt Lake City. The Mormons were recruiting young women like her in Scandinavia. She didn't like sharing a husband so she ran off with a monogamous man who was passing through town and they homesteaded a ranch that's still remote from any church.

In history class I used to wonder about my ancestors and the U.S. Civil War. My ancestors were all here in the U.S.A. but there were no Civil War stories. Both my grandfathers had World War II stories, one as a pacifist who refused arms and chose to work in the shipyards building and repairing ships for the Merchant Marine, and the other as an officer in the Army Air Corps. But the Civil War was distant from my ancestors and maybe they wanted it that way.

The only religion, non-religion, or anti-religion anyone in my family agrees on is Not Mormon.

My wife's family is thoroughly Mexican Irish Catholic. One of my wife's uncles was a priest.

The sorts of relatives in our families who'd refuse to attend weddings in an alien church, or even accept such a marriage as valid "in the eyes of God" are dead.

The community I live in is majority Hispanic and Catholic. Less than 15% of the people here identify exclusively as "white." Less than 5% belong to any Southern Baptist or similar Evangelical churches, churches of the sort I read so much about on DU.

Prosperity Gospel Christians are rare here. People may attend Mass less frequently, or not at all, but they don't tend to switch brands. The megachurch phenomena doesn't exist here as it does in Texas or some parts of California, churches that wrangle up those straying from other churches, and those seeking to fill some vague emptiness in their hearts that I mostly attribute to television.

Religion and nationalism can be horrible things, and can be especially poisonous when mixed, but you work with the tools you've got, not with the tools you wish you had. In my community Social Justice activism frequently has a very Catholic context.

Whenever I want to mess with someone who asks about my religion, especially if I think they are a Creationist, I tell them I'm an amateur Evolutionary Biologist. Anybody can be an atheist and they know it but biology is hard.

[Cartoonist]

9. Mickey Spillaine became a witness

Sytrange path some people take.

[trotsky]

10. Great stories! Thank you for describing your family history.

But remaining in the RCC gives them more money and power. Period.

[hunter]

12. Does the power arise in the religion, or from churches that allow those in power to use them?

It's a chicken or egg problem.

Which came first, racist authoritarian Christian support of the Republican Party, or vice versa?

Which came first, the Russian Orthodox Church's support of Putin's political machine or vice versa?

Which came first, Saudi support of Wahhabism or vice versa?

Authoritarian regimes frequently end up utilizing the authoritarian aspects of local or regional religions in morbid codependency.

[trotsky]

14. Power comes from the people, as always.

Without the support of people, power collapses.

The fact still remains, by giving money and membership to the RCC, you are giving it power.

[uriel1972]

15. Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser's

It seems the religions in those circumstances don't protest loudly or at all when they become the state religion.

[Act_of_Reparation]

11. I myself am voluntarily childless.

It makes reunions with my predominantly Catholic family exciting. Each and every year, I am reminded of how selfish my wife and I are for not putting aside our personal desires and aspirations to incubate a brood of mewling cabbages to replace us when we die.

[Pendrench]

13. Hi Act_of_Reparation - I'm very sorry to hear that you and your wife are subjected to this.

When my sister married my brother-in-law, they decided to wait several years before starting their family, and were constantly asked: "Why aren't you pregnant, yet? Don't you want kids?"

Their choice to wait should have been respected, just as you and your wife's choice not to have children should be respected.

Wishing you well and peace.

Tim