Not a political religion thread, but are there any Church Secretaries, Office Managers, Admins...

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

Pastors and so forth that can help me understand the Church Office psyche?

I retired last year and thought a Church Office position would be lowkey and fun.
BOY was I mistaken!

It's worse than any office I worked in (white collar) over my 40 year career.
Backbiting, hearsay, and misdirection is all part of the 'structure' here.. as if there was any structure.
Our pastor is pretty much 'like Trump' in that he thinks rules do not apply to him and whatever he says goes because he's the boss.

The SPRC is pretty much letting it slide... he's the boss.. do what he says... document issues.. and then... yeah, and then NOTHING, kinda of like the Republican led Senate.

This is ONLY my first church office position and only one pastor.. but I'm thinking this CANT be the norm.. where Christ is taught upstairs in the sanctuary, but downstairs, the halos come off and it's a 7th Grade Mean Girls arena!

HELP!

[Major Nikon]

1. Every church organization I've heard about is a Peyton Place

Organized religion by itself is generally pretty dysfunctional. Managing such an enterprise has to be worse.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

4. ... and I don't think they teach Business Ed in Seminary.

Which they should in some aspects if they are expected to be the main administrator as opposed to working with the Church Secretary who would outlast many pastors..

[Mariana]

7. I have heard the same. nt.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

8. It's really hard on someone just coming back into 'church life'...

after being away for 30+ years.. I know we are only responsible for ourselves... but sheesh.. you'd think if you got paid by the congregation, you'd treat everyone as a client instead of a servant and work together...

Definitely the Office is the 'Clay Feet' of the Golden Calf Ministry. Sigh.

[Mariana]

12. Maybe another church would be a better fit for you.

Or, you may choose to find something else to do in your retirement. Good luck, whatever you decide.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

13. I am looking at options... thanks for chatting!

[guillaumeb]

2. You are dealing with humans.

And as much as we all like to see our particular group as exceptional, we are generally disappointed.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

5. I just didn't expect the Narcissism and backbiting to be so rampant.

The old joke is that a young pastor comes in wanting to change he world.. and he gets into trouble for changing the bulletin.. is truly spot on.

[guillaumeb]

9. People become invested in what they see as the best way to proceed.

It happens in union organizations as well.

[MineralMan]

3. I'm sure it varies from church to church.

Maybe look for a different one to work at.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

6. Maybe.. after I get my 2 weeks vacation starting in July!

I do have priorities! HA.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. I have been on the boards of several churches and nonprofits, and the problem is...

not religion but the basic inability of humans to too often fully pull together. It's great that we are not bees in a hive, but that leads us off into our own personal beliefs and actions that do not support the group, and often tend to trash it.

Just three of those groups...

One group, essentially social, that had no particular aims but was based on, shall we say, a personal condition (think along the lines of "bald Headed Men of America&quot . It had a vague stated aim of service, but ended up almost destroying itself in internecine wars. Never once was it mentioned how these usurpers or other evil types were going to further whatever aims we had, but either the old order must be abolished or the newcomers raised to power. No peace or accommodation could possibly be allowed.

Another group, essentially supporting scientific studies, had a similar revolution because certain people out of power simply hated those who were running things. The fact that they existed was the problem, and every little thing was blown out of all proportion. (Very similar to the first group) Secret meetings were held, the villains were expunged, and the organization went back to being a sleepy little thing out in the middle of nowhere.

The church I am thinking of was previously split almost in half by a former minister who had this Trumpian ability to sow strife wherever he showed up. He was eventually shown the door, but not before leaving a very bad taste in everyone's mouths. We had ex-Catholics, Jews, atheists, homosexuals, and various races all getting along in a Peaceable Kingdom-- until it wasn't any more.

The thing these three groups had in common were nebulous goals and being run by volunteers. Hate to say it, but unless everyone in the organization has a stake in it, like a paycheck, it's herding cats times 10. Not impossible, of course, but on very thin ice.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

14. It is my first time in dealing with Volunteers as well.. the unpaid heroes...

.. but just yesterday, I had one 'complain' that I moved a couple of books from one drawer on the right to the drawer on the left and put in something that the volunteers now do in the drawer on the right.

It's also difficult dealing with Volunteers who range in age of 67yo to 80.

Love'm all.. just have to get my mind conditioned a bit.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. I was in charge of an annual dinner for one of these orgs, and...

I decided that instead of renting a local hall and getting a catering outfit, like we always did, I would hold it at a local restaurant. One of the biggest reasons for the change was because we always had to set up and clean up at the hall. You can imagine how that went in the past...

Needless to say, while the cost was about the same the bulk of the complaints came from that age group, and from people who never set up or cleaned up anyway.

After chewing my tongue to a bloody pulp through all the questions and fears, the night was an extraordinary success and everyone loved it.

BTW, I'm 72 myself, and occasionally fall into the crabby old fart trap myself, but do try to limit it.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

18. Ah, that set up & clean up can be rough

It seems the church has been able to get the youth to help out a lot with that now that we have a married couple who are our Youth Directors.

And age really doesn't have much to do with it... two of our most agile volunteers who is involved in almost everything are 74 and 79. (but then again, don't change a THING with ANYTHING unless you clear it with them first! hahah).

One of the Front Office volunteers is 79 and is the best ever.. and actually makes suggestions to make things better!

It seems to be a matter of age and background.

[Bavorskoami]

11. As the husband of a church secretary

As the husband of a church admin asst./secretary I can understand your pain, but also can say it is not always that way.

My wife had about 13 years of extremely meaningful and joyous service to our church. Her relationships with the pastors, starting with an interim pastor, then a settled pastor for 11 years, and then another interim, after the death of the settled pastor. All of those pastors were humble, displayed a true "pastor's heart" and loved being servants to the congregation and the universal church. She absolutely loved serving the church during that time. That is not say they their were not stressful moments, needy congregants, calls at night from people trying to contact the pastor because of one crisis or another - serious illness, death, wedding plans, maintaining confidentiality in many sensitive matters, etc. But she still felt called to serve.

Then came the next pastor hired to be the settled pastor. Narcissism, controlling management behavior, gaslighting, triangulation were all part of his modus operandi. The situation became untenable and she had to leave the position she had loved.

So sorry you are not having the experience my wife had for most of her career in the church office.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

15. gaslighting... wow, that is definitely going on here....

... the Pastor 'feigns' memory issues.. I didn't say that, I don't recall, I never promised, It wasn't my idea and then anytime I try to bring up the actions of rudeness and curtness of the other ministerial staff to the 'simple office staff'.. I am the one who is not showing grace!

Even my 'job description' is left 'open' to the whims of whatever the pastor wants when the pastor wants it done.

The pay really isn't worth the trouble and my talents in administration, project management, and business analytics are going to complete waste...

Oh well.. thanks for your words that it ISN'T always this way.

Maybe at the end of the summer and vacation is over I can find something else.

Cheers!

[edhopper]

17. I have been away from religion for a long time.

But I have met my share of clergy. Some are nice and kind, some are assholes. Sounds like the problem here is the pastor is an asshole and that has poisoned the whole church.

I agree with others here, find another Church. Or even another charity organization to work in.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

19. I can't go into too much detail since I don't want to discovered...

... but

Our current pastor is only a continuing thorn... they didn't start the fire.

Two pastors previous to this one, was a non-administrator and so the church members began running the church as they saw fit... it's created a LOT of silos where instead of the right hand not know what the left hand is doing.. the fingers on the same hand are oblivious!

The prior pastor tried to put some accountability and organization back ... and was pretty much 'forced to leave' because of the things said about him from the staff... and the staff's entourage in the congregation...

This pastor has put more emphasis on Committees being formed and they are the one's who in the long run should be the deciding bodies working together. Good try.. good start.. but it's all fading away and going back to the Silos.

And I step in all gung-ho, Let me help you get that up to speed!! and am getting the same treatment now that the prior pastor did.. from the same staff and entourage.

Instead of Peyton Place, it really is Mean Girls!

[edhopper]

22. As Jordan Peele would say "Get Out!"

It's not worth your time to be in a toxic environment. Do it somewhere else.
I worked for several companies in the same industry. Though the work didn't change, the differences due to management were day and night.
Life is too short to put up with this crap. You are not doing yourself any favors being noble, save yourself from this toxic workplace.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

23. The writing on the wall is quite plain... guess I just needed to hear others. :) n/t

[edhopper]

24. Nobody ever regreted leaving

a job that sucks.

Best with your future endeavors.

[Igel]

20. It's variable.

Even over time, it's variable.

I worked for a small church office for a decade. Rule 1: Everybody involved is human, and it takes an incredible person to say, "My motivations are selfish and it's okay when I'm wrong, I'm not changing."

After that it all flows logically from a few other parameters.

How dogmatic is the church? How much authority does the pastor have? If there's a board that controls most things, then the pastor's less important--the more distributed the power, the more petty the cavil, but in the end the gentler the congregation gets treated. On the other hand, the church tends to be less decisive and more muddled in outlook.

My church was a doctrinal organization. It existed as a breakaway group from a larger denomination because the larger church changed doctrine. It had crappy social activities. It existed to be faithful to the doctrine.

The pastor had strong views, but tempered them very much. When he was judgmental, he reserved discussion to a handful of people: Wife, asst. pastor, maybe church staff. What was said in-house damned well stayed in house. The asst. pastor was more judgmental, but also indifferent. Often his attitude was, "I'll tell them what to do, and if they don't do it, too bad, so sad, just keep me on the payroll." At the same time, he was the nosier of the two because he figured that while he wasn't responsible for what others did, he was responsible for maintaining order in the church. If there's a bad apple that might corrupt it, it had to be expunged with prejudice.

Meanwhile the pastor really cared about people and it upset him when they screwed up. The church alcoholic falls off the wagon, he's there helping out. Some widow needs money for a new fridge or heat or car repairs and the widow's fund doesn't have the $, we'd find out months later that she stopped asking because the money just appeared (from the pastor's personal funds).

Problem was this produced a lot of intense loyalty. Not only did the pastor not ask to be pastor--others asked, since he'd dropped out over the doctrinal changes and was content to be a construction worker--but his attitude garnered him a lot of loyalty.

Fast forward a decade. Two things happened. First, he still cared, and had been hands-off because people were shaken by their treatment as they exited their old church. Second, all the adulation went to his head. He veered towards being the head of a nanny state. This was fed by the asst. pastor's law-and-order mentality. You can figure out that went over badly when the leadership veered from hands-off but very preachy to "tow the line" and very preachy.

The church office was often the center of a lot of gossip. Between the pastor, asst. pastor, and choir director/outreach manager, plus the two office staffers (one of them was me) there were a lot of games played. The asst. pastor didn't like the hands-off attitude, and the two of them went round and round. The choir director constantly screwed up in ways that helped his programs and which required bailing out. They knew the screw ups were intentional. "Oh, I'm $10k over budget. Oops." Even worse, "Oh, that purchase was approved by the asst. pastor." Who'd immediately say, "Yes, because you said the pastor approved it?" "Oh, I did? Sorry, didn't mean to imply that."

When I started there were three staffers. One was young, outspoken, and spread gossip. She was gone not long after I arrived. The other staffer and I are still friends, 30 years after we each quit because the church was becoming too brutal, and both of us kept things confidential. We'd hear gossip from below, and it would often stop with us; we'd hear gossip from above, and it would stop with us. Often we served as mediators--we might hear that something bad is about to happen, and gently nudge a parishioner to clear up a misunderstanding or lay low, until the storm blew over. Or let some additional information drop upward to help inform the pastoral views.

When we got an influx of junior/part-time ministers late in the part of the game I was witness to it was horrible as each had to virtue signal to show their righteousness. Some stomped on parishioners to show that they could enforce doctrine. Others were more of the "visit the sick" type, One, I think, deserved the gig, because we'd hear accidentally that he was doing things like helping folk, often weeks or months after the fact. Whereas others would come in and brag about what they did (getting their reward).

Ultimately, the pastor (or the board, wherever the power is centered) is in charge of the climate in the church, in the office, and often what's happening in the office will percolate downward over time.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

21. In Charge of the Climate of the Church

The church is actually amazing! The Missions and Outreach and Nurturing and the Youth Group has really taken off with our new Directors! (They're at a pool party as I type!)

There are always the few congregants who are gruff and will complain if a new visitor is 'sitting in their spot'. But 90% of the regular attendees (350 - 400) are so generous and giving of their time and contributions it is surely a blessing to our community and surrounding area!

But then we 'come downstairs'..

And the office is a fiasco.. and I'm taking most of the brunt of being the 'problem' but it's because I was hired under one Job Description.. and since then it's slowly eroded away.. that I'm nothing more than a glorified clerk.. I even got called in by the pastor, because I sent a 'lets move the staff meeting' due to us having 8 people now (in a small conference room) and there are known heating/cooling issues in the one we meet in. Manager? Can't even 'ask can we' without going through the Pastor?

I am slowly learning NOTHING is discussed 'between meetings'.. from staff to committee to special events.

It's true I may be the issue... but it's because I've walked into a dark room filled with gas fumes and struck a match and everything exploded.

Church is not the place to point out the 'Emperor has no Clothes'. (Whoever that emperor is .. and in my humble observations.. the pastor has delegated all matters that he should handle.. to the Ministerial Staff who pretty much run the church, run the committees.. and can have some impact on the Missions.. but fortunately a woman's group (loosely associated with the church) runs those.

Thanks for you story! It's very helpful.

It is time for me to acquiesce to the situation (I've already quit going to sermons and all my volunteering) and just be quiet and get paid the same whether the Mean Girls rule or not.

My naivete' thinking a church office would be different is shocking obvious. Now to see if makes me backslide to my past strong distaste for Organized Religion.