Did Cain slay Abel of his own free will or

[MineralMan]

was that murder pre-ordained?

What think you, keeping in mind that it may just be a fable or an allegory?

[guillaumeb]

1. How did murder come about, father?

And the father, taking into account the young age of the child, explained it.

[Thomas Hurt]

2. I heard the story in church at one time or another, but smelled a rat when I got older...

since the all-knowing God asked Cain where his brother was when God knew good and well. God knew beforehand if God is all-knowing. So Cain went and did exactly what God wanted him to do and went right where God wanted him to go.

A set up from the beginning.

[MineralMan]

3. Interesting.

I remember the story, too. I assume everyone here does, actually.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

4. .. and Bible Literalists should have problems with...

.. your brothers BLOOD CALLED OUT to me...

just sayin'.

[MineralMan]

5. Among many other things...

[MineralMan]

6. But what about this?

[Voltaire2]

7. Plus a whole lot of incest.

[Ferrets are Cool]

8. I will "see" your question and "raise" you another one...

IF GOD Almighty is omnipotent, all seeing and all knowing, why did he set up such a flawed system that he had to "send his only begotten son" to his death to fix it?
Was he just throwing spaghetti up against the wall to see what stuck?

Yes, I'm being an ass.

[MineralMan]

13. More clues about the non-existence of deities.

That's how I see it, anyhow.

[Ferrets are Cool]

25. Ding Ding

[Clash City Rocker]

26. God gave us free will, which means we're going to do the wrong thing sometimes

I know the Religion board is really the atheism board, so I expect a lot of snarky answers to this. That’s okay.

Also, Cain murdered Able of his own free will, because he was jealous. And when God asked him wher his brother was, He already knew the answer.

[MineralMan]

28. OK, so, let me get this right...

You think Cain and Abel were real people, and the offspring of Adam and Eve? Did the original teller of this story actually witness it? I just want to know who I'm talking to here, before going any further.

[Ferrets are Cool]

32. Dayum, if I was as sharp as you

I would be able to slice through large boulders with a single swing. You are da man!!

*there is NO sarcasm in my sentence. I really think that.

[MineralMan]

33. Aw, shucks...

[MarvinGardens]

9. I don't know about that one, but God caused

the pharoh to continue to hold God's chosen people in slavery, after the first plague. The pharoh was seriously thinking about letting them go, but God "hardened his heart". This escalated through multiple punishments visited upon the Egyptians, each time with God hardening the pharoh's heart. It culminated with God killing all of the Egyptians' firstborn sons.

Since the pharoh no longer had free will once the plagues started, this was premeditated murder committed by God.

[Major Nikon]

10. The "Mark of Cain" was used by Christians to justify slavery

Later it was also used to justify Jim Crow.

[Igel]

11. And also the prophecy about Ham.

Those two things are, of course, completely different things.

On the other hand, there's how "Supernatural" interpreted the "mark of Cain." Which was, of course, Cain's mark.

[MineralMan]

14. Yes, and Adam and Eve had to get busy again

to keep their line going, apparently.

[Major Nikon]

16. You mean the metaphorical Adam and Eve

Obviously.

[MineralMan]

17. Of course. In reality, there was no such pair, of course.

However, religionists point to them, even those who claim not to be Bible literalists. There was no Adam and Eve, no Garden of Eden, no Cain and Abel, and no freaking talking serpent. None of that. Such ideas are clearly nonsense and pure mythology.

That creates a real conflict for Bible enthusiasts. They know it's mythology, but can't say so. That creates a shitstorm generated by the "true believers" who take it all literally. So, they hedge and dissemble, referring to Adam and Eve only when necessary, but in total confusion, since they have to take it sort of literally or the entire story falls apart.

Meanwhile, Science has a very, very good handle on the evolution of the human species. It understands how humans came to be what they are now. Who was Eve? Well, mitochondrial DNA offers some clues, but they don't match up with the whole Eden story and all the mythology. So, the fundamentalists have to claim that science is wrong, and the metaphorists have to do their delicate tap dance to preserve any semblance of belief in Genesis as a true story at all.

In some cases, they've reduced it all to some sort of amorphous "Creator," who set the entire metaphorical creation into action. Then, they have to try to fit that "Creator" somehow into the mythology. The process is comical and entertaining, but that's all it is.

[Major Nikon]

18. Makes you wonder which requires a higher level of delusion

[MineralMan]

21. It doesn't make me wonder at all.

The Bible Literalists are clearly very stupid or ignorant people who will never make an effort to understand things. They're not deluded. They're just ignorant, either knowingly or by nature.

The Bible Metaphorists, on the other hand, actually know the truth, but pretend not to for appearance's sake and to bolster whatever is left of their theism. That's where the delusion lies. Knowing the truth but denial of that truth requires some serious mental gymnastics or sheer delusional thinking. Which it is in individual cases is not something I think about a lot.

[Major Nikon]

23. "Bible Literalists" aka believers

They are simply fundamentalists. Just seems kind of funny someone would need to call them something else, obviously intended as a pejorative, while trotting out "metaphorical" original intents which require a higher order of delusional thinking to believe. It gets even funnier when they pretend such ancient people actually understood concepts not conceived for another 5 thousand years, but just dummed them down for an audience of illiterate sheep herders.

[MineralMan]

24. Right. I can see old Moishe now, pondering

how to explain the Big Bang to a gathering of illiterate goatherds. "Well, there was, like, nothing at all. No form. It was void. Then, ancient Yahweh said, 'Someone turn on the damned lights! I can't see shit!' And suddenly there was light, and Yahweh could see good. Then, this happened and that happened, and here we are gathered around the fire."

[marylandblue]

20. Maybe the idea of a perfect God is too literal

In the early stories, God is limited, nasty and jealous. And only interested in his own people. The omnipotent perfect God only came with the later prophets. Perhaps they were speaking metaphorically as well. Or thought flattery would placate the Big Brute.

[MineralMan]

22. Well, those old nomadic storytellers had limited knowledge to work with.

What they didn't know, they faked. Bronze age and Iron age goatherds didn't know the difference, and didn't care, anyhow. What's amazing is that we're still taking those old stories seriously in any way. It's a freaking marvel.

[Igel]

12. so, about 'Oumuamua.

Did the Solar System go rushing by 'Oumuamua or did 'Oumuamua go rushing through the Solar System?

The answer is, of course, "Yes." Both are equally true, but only one can be true at a time.

[MineralMan]

15. Gravity affects all material things.

Simultaneously. Of course more massive things exert more force than less massive things. So, we often forget the Earth's gravitational effect on the Sun. The moon's effect on the Earth, though, is evidenced by the tides.

It's all proportional.

[Mc Mike]

19. Just an allegory to explain a 'brother vs brother' civil war fight

between agricultural and animal husbandry adherents.

History written by the winners.

[malchickiwick]

27. Since (Y-chromosome) Adam & (mitochondrial) Eve lived 1000s of years apart, I choose fable (lie).

That said, fratricide as part of a people's founding mythology was not entirely uncommon in the ancient world, see Romulus and Remus & Set and Osiris.

[MineralMan]

29. Yes, of course it's a fable. some people, though, claim

to actually believe it. What to do with them?

[LongtimeAZDem]

30. On the one hand, if the creator is all knowing and all powerful, no.

On the other hand, if free will does exist, then according to the story, yes.

On the gripping hand, who cares?

[MineralMan]

31. On my other hand, I have four fingers and a thumb.

It's all a fable, so it doesn't really matter, as you say.