Atheism Has a Very, Very Narrow Scope, by Definition

[MineralMan]

Note: Reposted, with minor changes, after being mistakenly posted in GD

Atheism has to do only with the idea of the existence of deities. Atheists don't believe that such supernatural entities exist. Some atheists declare that they don't exist. Most simply don't or cannot believe they exist. Others say they "lack belief" in such entities.

Either way, that is the only tenet of atheism. Atheism doesn't have anything to say about other philosophical questions. Individual atheists may be humanists or royalists. Atheism can exist in democracies, socialist societies, or even in tyrannical government systems. However, atheism is not in any way about politics. It is far narrower in its scope than that. There is no broad philosophy attached to atheism. It is simply nonbelief in supernatural entities or gods.

Atheism has no doctrine. It has no scriptures. It has no central organization. It has no widely-followed leaders. It has no churches or meeting halls that attract crowds. It is an individual thing. Every atheist has his or her own world view, ethical compass, and way of life. Atheists have little in common with each other beyond a disbelief in deities.

Atheists, as individuals, believe many things about many things. They just don't believe that deities or other supernatural entities exist. That's about the only principle you can depend on an atheist to hold. Beyond that, you must ask the individual atheist how he or she thinks about other subjects.

Atheism is not a belief system. It is simply non-belief in one particular area. It cannot be expanded beyond that, either by athiests or others. Atheism is simple, and very narrowly defined.

[PJMcK]

1. And it's so easy!

As Bill Maher once observed, atheism takes so little of your time.

[MineralMan]

3. Well, that, too, of course.

It's sort of like my decision to stop shaving and let my beard grow. I made that decision in 1969, after my term of enlistment in the USAF expired. I haven't shaved since.

It's easy. I don't have to shave every morning, which saves me about five minutes, I think. Five minutes a day saved over almost 50 years adds up to a significant amount of time. My barber trims my beard whenever I get a haircut, which is not often.

Being an atheist saves even more time, I think. No Sunday morning hours are spent sitting in a church. No prayers or Bible study to try to square my philosophy with scripture. Instead, I'm either working or doing what I'm doing today - posing on DU. I've been an atheist
a few years longer than I've not shaved. I should add up all the time I've saved, I think.

So, you're right. Being an atheist is dead easy, and a big time-saver, too.

[violetpastille]

9. Yes but

Isn't the time saving aspect of non-belief mitigated by daily posts about non-belief?

If I really wanted to save time I'd stay off the computer - (MY number one time suck).



As Jane's Addiction said, "Tomorrow. I'm gonna kick tomorrow.." (I"m not gonna. Let's be honest.)

[MineralMan]

12. Posting on DU is a great exercise that keeps your intellect in good shape.

I need it to be strong and robust for my work. So, when I'm not working, I'm posting here and there.

[Pope George Ringo II]

13. It's not about the posting.

It's about the evils being done in the name of religion. Homophobia, reproductive rights, dominionism, child abuse, and so forth. If religion would stop being evil, we'd stop being so bothered by it.

[MineralMan]

18. You make an excellent point!

You're absolutely right, and I'd welcome that action on religion's part.

[Pope George Ringo II]

19. I don't believe in wasting time by playing cricket, either

But there's a reason I don't have a problem with other people doing it. If religion were as benevolent as cricket, I'd be less annoyed by it.

[violetpastille]

21. I'm bothered too

If there were any fundie Christians on DU promulgating their anti-Christian views I will be right there +1- ing you! Lemme at 'em.

[Pope George Ringo II]

23. Like conflating atheism with Chinese authoritarianism, for example?

You'll find some quite peculiar views on abortion rights in this very forum, too.

Edit: Let's be perfectly clear that the bad guys on these issues are xians. There is no reason to suppose that they are "bad" xians, "anti"-xians, or anything other than xians. Misogyny, for example, is pretty much baked into the cake right from the Eve myth.

[violetpastille]

31. Gotcha.

[violetpastille]

33. Myth

I was listening to Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" yesterday and he and Bill Moyers were laughing about the beginnings of buck passing.

I don't really interpret the myth that way.

My take:

Eden = Pre Agriculture when we were all fairly egalitarian and invested in each other
The Apple = Technology. The God like power to control environment
Eve = Enlightenment. "Let's do it"
Adam = Fundamentalism "Let's just follow the rules."
The Casting Out of the Garden = Trying to find our way back to the harmony that was easy when we had no choices. With technology, money, language, agriculture we are forced to choose. We must evolve as a species or we will destroy this beautiful gift of life on earth.

[Pope George Ringo II]

44. Obviously, it symbolized something. We don't even have the original to speculate, though.

Still, it's worth keeping in mind that "original sin" is the all-permeating evil of disobedience which eventually required the deity to sacrifice a weekend. They're pretty clear about whose fault that disobedience was.

[Brainstormy]

2. and yet strangely

it seems a very difficult concept to get across. Yesterday I heard a PhD in Philosophy, three times, begin sentences with, "If atheism is true . . ." -- which makes absolutely no sense. You also frequently hear gross generalzations about what atheists, "do," what they "think" or what they
"want," when almost any statement one could make about atheists, using a plural pronoun, is ridiculous.

[MineralMan]

4. Many people have a lot invested in their religious beliefs.

They can't imagine not having them. But, religious beliefs take a lot of time and constant rejustification of their validity.

So, it's not surprising that they look at atheism as being similar to religion. It's not, though. It's not a group thing. Not at all. It's not a belief system, either. It's simply no belief at all in the one thing that is central to theistic religions. As another poster said, "Atheism is easy."

[Major Nikon]

5. Some misframe atheism out of ignorance

Some do so out of duplicity.

[MineralMan]

6. Ah...there you have it.

How many times has the definition of atheism as simply non-belief been posted here? And yet, we're still hearing theists attempting to redefine it and frame it as just like a religion. I suppose it's important that they believe such a thing.

Atheism has nothing to do with religion. It is simply non-religion. No deities? No religion. It's not complicated at all. I'll ignore Buddhism and some other less common religions that dispense with deities more or less.

To quote a bit of Christian scripture: "Let those who have ears to hear, hear." Some, apparently are not listening, either through laziness or out of being obstinate or dishonest.

[Major Nikon]

42. When it's the latter, one can certainly speculate about the reasons

When you believe in things with zero factual support, there is inevitably going to be a natural tendency for doubt provided one isn't pathologically delusional. How people deal with that doubt says a lot about them. One way is to try and rationalize it by claiming the naysayers' claim is unfalsifiable. This requires investing in two fallacies. The first requires pretending anyone who calls bullshit can't do so without a competing claim. The second goes one step farther in pretending an unfalsifiable competing claim makes any other unfalsifiable claim more valid.

[Beartracks]

53. Similar to thinking people "believe" in science. n/t

[c-rational]

7. Reading your post I had to look up the definition of deity. Upon reading several of the definitions

that popped up on google, I also find it hard to believe in a deity.

[MineralMan]

11. You know, I've never done that. I will, though.

Clicking the Image tab in Google for that search is interesting, too. Plenty of food for thought there.

The Shopping tab, too, for the word "deity," gives you lots of options if you want to buy a deity.

[edhopper]

8. Why are you mad at God?

[MineralMan]

10. Ironic, Isn't It?

[LakeArenal]

26. Why is god mad at me?

Oh yeah. Eve ate an apple...

[JenniferJuniper]

37. That nonsense is exactly what

turned me into an atheist at age 6. I've never found a reason to look back.

[PJMcK]

39. Good thing she did!

I like apples.

(wink)

[MineralMan]

48. Of course, it wasn't an apple. They don't grow

in the part of the world where that account was written. That's an artifact of translation. More likely the fruit was a pomegranate or a nice juicy apricot. Both come from that part of the world.

But, in most western Christian minds, it's an apple. Just one translation error among thousands.

[Onyrleft]

14. Do you know the real difference between an Atheist and an Agnostic?

An Atheist's parents are still alive.

[MineralMan]

15. Uh, no. Not at all.

You are incorrect, as is your assumption.

[Onyrleft]

54. History has proven that any BS (Belief System) that you can't take a joke about,

can be used to convince you to set innocent people on fire.

[MineralMan]

64. Oh, so you're a joker, then? Your post was a joke, then?

See, I don't find your joke amusing at all. In fact, I'm flying out to California in a couple of days. My 94 year old mother is in hospice care, and my 94 year old father is having a hard time coping with her deteriorating condition.

Both of them are atheists. I am an atheist. We won't be praying about this. We'll be trying to find ways to make her passing as peaceful and non-traumatic as possible.

Your joke implies that losing one's parents would lead an atheist to reconsider. You are incorrect, and your "joke" is in the worst possible taste. It's not funny at any level. First, it assumes that atheism is a matter of convenience for people who have no challenges. Second, it mocks genuine grief by asserting that suddenly becoming a theist is a common reaction among atheists who experience their parents' deaths.

It wasn't funny. Such "jokes" are never funny.

You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to make a "joke" out of such a thing.

[Mariana]

65. I'm sorry to hear your mother's condition is worsening, MineralMan.

When I read that disgusting "joke" I thought about you, because you told us recently she was in the hospital, and of course you've told us her age many times. I also thought about my husband. He lost his mother, suddenly and unexpectedly, in 2015. His father died a few months ago. My husband remains an atheist, just as you will most certainly remain an atheist.

And now the joker "jokes" that we are potential murderers because of our atheism, although it is possible that statement wasn't intended to be a joke at all.

[MineralMan]

66. Thanks. It's a difficult time for her and my father.

Last edited Mon Dec 31, 2018, 02:53 PM - Edit history (1)

My being there won't change the situation, but I hope I'll be able to help with emotional support. Yesterday, when I talked with my father on the phone, as I do every day, he said, "We live too long. We live past enjoyment and satisfaction. We live long enough to deteriorate and suffer." He wasn't angry about that, just frustrated.

My parents are realists. Always have been. In good times and bad, they look around and see that things are what they are. That has been a constant with them, and still is.

This may be the last time I get to talk to my mother. She still has lucid moments, so I'll take advantage of those. I'll also make sure everything is being handled properly by the people who are caring for them. If not, I will be a fierce advocate for them. I'll also do my best to help my sister, who has her own dementia to deal with, and her husband.

And then, I'll return to Minnesota and my own life. There will be other trips to California, each one for worse reasons than this one, which isn't that wonderful either.

Like my parents, I'm a realist. Like them, I will cope as best i can.

Difficult times.

As for the poster in question, I don't expect to see much more of that one here in the Religion Group. That poster wasn't well-received here, and probably will disappear.

[Pope George Ringo II]

16. I'm an atheist with two dead parents.

What does that make you?

[edhopper]

17. That's like saying

all atheist are just mad at God.

Silly joke.

[MineralMan]

20. Or like "There are no atheists in foxholes."

All are stupid statements, made without any thought at all.

[edhopper]

25. what does it say

when belief happens only when people are at their most vulnerable emotionally.

[MineralMan]

29. It doesn't say much at all, really.

It's more a matter of nominal affiliation than anything else. I just did an OP on nominalism, actually, because of that post.

[Pope George Ringo II]

30. After my father's death, predatory religionists came out of the woodwork.

Six months later, when my mother died, nobody was stupid enough to try it again.

[MineralMan]

34. When my younger brother died in 2017,

there was no religious service, because he had no religious beliefs. We had an outdoor memorial service, which was attended by hundreds of people from that small town. He had been the Mayor for a while and was well-known and liked. Despite the non-religious nature of the memorial, his son took it there. He's a died-in-the wool fundamentalist, and his eulogy was much like a tent revival meeting. It did not go well. My parents were very annoyed at the eulogy, as were many of my brother's friends, etc. We all held our tongues, of course, because it was my brother's son.

The cause of my brother's death was related to his alcohol consumption, sadly. His son went there, too, exhorting the attendees to avoid alcohol completely. It was a sad, sad business, which ended with a long, long prayer beseeching God to forgive his father for his sinful life and so on. I had spoken earlier about my brother's life, focusing on his many friendships and the memories people who knew him would carry with them.

After the memorial service, many people came up to me to thank me for my words. Nobody talked to my brother's son. He stood alone after the service. I didn't ever say anything to him about the poor taste his eulogy demonstrated. A very sad business, all caused by too much religious zeal that got badly misplaced by his son. I was embarrassed for him, but angry at the same time for the tone he brought to a memorial service for my brother.

[Pope George Ringo II]

46. I have a pretty good grip on this one, too.

I had a cousin who was an atheist, and died when he was 31. This was 31 years longer than they thought he'd ever live. Admittedly, nobody burying a child is ever really "right" about it, even with that kind of forewarning. And I can certainly concede that dying on his mother's birthday at her favorite restaurant probably didn't help. But the service was far more religious than he would have wanted.

[MineralMan]

47. Well, it's true that funeral services are for the survivors.

However, a little consideration for the deceased is worth offering, I think. My nephew is suffering a bit for his insensitivity. He's not popular right now with the rest of the family. He's surprised at that. We all knew his father better than he did, I guess.

[Mariana]

36. That is utterly disgusting behavior.

Setting out to try to recruit you at such a time. Sickening.

[Pope George Ringo II]

45. The sheer banality of evil is always overlooked.

I'm as guilty of it as anybody, but it's hard to remember.

[The Genealogist]

32. Mine are both gone, and I identify as an atheist

Mom died when I was a child. I was a Christian at the time, although too young to understand what Christianity was all about. It was painful, but I got through it eventually. Part of my ability to cope was that I thought she was in heaven.

Dad died when I was 33. By that time I was a long-time atheist. It was far more painful, as I knew he was gone, and that was it. I had memories, pictures, audio and video recordings. I knew that is all I would have from then on. Didn't move me from atheism to agnosticism.

Religion did help me cope with Mom. I'll admit that. I thought of her as being with her father and grandparents and happy. Of course, to a lesser extent, I was more resilient as a child, and family was better able to help me cope, too, back then.

As an atheist, I see the idea of heaven as a place for which no evidence exists, but serves to give comfort. Wanting that comfort, for me, doesn't make Heaven a real place. Rather, I see it as just a feel-good distraction. I'd rather focus on what I think is real, not on what makes me feel better for a while, even if that is a more painful choice sometimes.

[JenniferJuniper]

38. I don't understand

How would that make a difference?

[Voltaire2]

56. Oh like a liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged.

No I didn’t know that. Because it is right wing bullshit.

[Freelancer]

22. Some of the religious are the most "mad at God" people I've ever met

That doesn't stop those folks going to church though. The fervor might be greater, in fact, due to their guilty feelings about being mad at God.

My cousin once told me he didn't understand why God allows so many sinners to live. I replied, in jest, that maybe he just likes them.

That launched my cousin into a state I had never seen from him before. He went on about how he'd always gone to church, obeyed God's law, etc. Why should "they" have better lives than him? I said it sounded like God was the one he was really mad at. An odd look came over his face, like it does when you touch on someone's innermost secret.

We changed the subject.

[MineralMan]

24. Interesting.

[LakeArenal]

27. " Why god 'allows' so many sinners to live?" He made them that way in his perfection..

[rurallib]

28. what's the use of doing good stuff if you don't get the big rewards?

[violetpastille]

35. You were right

I replied, in jest, that maybe he just likes them.

[Mariana]

40. Is your cousin a Christian?

If so, what denomination is he in that doesn't teach that everyone is a sinner? The Bible is very clear on that point, it is repeated over and over again. Very few Christians would disagree.

[Freelancer]

41. LOL. "Very few Christians would disagree" Good one.

He's a Catholic.

There are sinners, and then there are sinners that aren't Catholic that are going to hell and mucking things up on Earth in the meantime. That's what he believes, and that side of the family in general, I'd say.

[Mariana]

43. It is funny how many Christians don't like the way God runs the show

and imagine they could do a much better job of it. Why do they worship a deity they clearly think is incompetent?

[Freelancer]

49. That the Universe is utterly impersonal is scarier than thinking it's is ruled by a bad person -nt

A bad person can be cajoled, appeased, buttered-up even. What can be done with an impersonal Universe?

[MineralMan]

50. The impersonal universe is an easier place in which to live.

With no deity at all involved, the universe is just a container. I like that.

[Freelancer]

51. Most people are in the stages -- on the way to the point where you are currently

I see the Kubler-Ross stages of grief when I look at religion in the last few hundred years.

For ages, humanity has been engaged in denial, anger, bargaining, depression and, finally, the acceptance of the nonexistence of the God the ancestors believed in so fervently. That's a simply terrible process.

For those of us in the end stages, it's on us to be kind. Many of us have stepped out of the river, and know that it's cold as hell in the open air at first. That's why atheists and agnostics should keep plenty of towels and blankets handy at all times.

[MineralMan]

52. I agree for most situations.

Here, though, not so much.

[Onyrleft]

55. Your philosophy isn't a problem solving solving process.

Your religion, or anti-religion or non religion or any other BS (Belief System) (you're not immune from being abrasive and irritating for constantly praddling on about whatever it is) is not something that fixes any real world problems.
Our philosophy or BS is just the crap we use to justify the shit we do.
I say this as an open eyed optimist.

[uriel1972]

58. Actually throwing out bad ideas...

does tend to make it easier to grow good ideas... think about it some time.

[uriel1972]

59. Oh and athiesm is not a philosophy...

a religion or even a belief. It is the state of being without a god or gods. That's it.

So as for "prattling on about it", do you tell other minorities to stop "prattling on" about trying to find space to live and breathe in a world that is set against them?

[MineralMan]

62. I didn't claim that it was.

That came from your mind, not mine.

[Lordquinton]

57. I think the inverse should be stated as well

the whole atheist/theist dichotomy is narrow, it's a yes no, or positive/negative. Theists just share a belief in a deity and past that you have to find out where they stand. Much easier to classify, as someone can say they are catholic and you have a good idea of their basic beliefs, or what they should be, but aside from that it simply means a positive belief in the divine rather than negative. Or whatever semantic wording you want to use to phrase it.

[Kablooie]

60. I think atheism is more general than that.

It seems to me that Athiesm is simply an unwillingness to believe in extraordinary and fantastic claims without proof.

Quantum mechanics has extraordinary and fantastic claims but it also offers scientific proof for those claims so we are open to believing it.

No one has offered any kind of proof of an old man with the white beard sitting on a cloud ruling the universe so atheists will not believe it. If,in some hypothetical world, this could be proven to be true scientifically, an atheist also would be open to believing it.

No has any proof of a conscious existence after death either.

I think atheists would be open to accepting these claims if there was verifiable proof that it was true. (A book written by men thousands of years ago is not verifiable proof.)

So atheistic belief is not simply a disbelief in Gods. It's a disbelief in extraordinary and fantastic claims made without and evidence that it is true.

[Voltaire2]

61. That is skepticism.

“an unwillingness to believe in extraordinary and fantastic claims without proof.“

Atheism is a very narrow subset of skepticism specific to god beliefs.

Atheists, for example, can be ufo idiots.

[Kablooie]

67. I suppose you're right.

The "thiest" part of the word kind of limits it.

[MineralMan]

68. I think you meant "Thighest"

As in, "Isn't she the thighest? Va-va-voom!"

[Kablooie]

69. No, because I might believe in that.

[MineralMan]

63. For me, atheism has nothing to do with unwillingness to believe.

I'm completely unable to believe in supernatural stuff like gods.

The lack of even evidence, not to mention proof, is why I cannot believe.

Given the amount of time humans have been around, the idea that some sort of evidence or proof of deities or other such myths will appear is ridiculous.

There is no "belief" in atheism. Most atheists would say they "believe" there are no gods. Atheism is the opposite of belief.