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TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:22 PM Nov 2012

Here's the kerfuffleless (yet significant) post that started the kerfuffle...

I was asked to repost it and hope it now gets more positive reviews than the first version. I just realized there is a "Women's rights and issues" group and it probably has a place there, too.

(the full interview is 42 minutes long and includes much more than the excerpts at the site-- worth a listen)

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/12/164958401/parenting-a-child-whos-fallen-far-from-the-tree

"When Andrew Solomon started his family with his husband, John Habich, he says, people were surprised that he wasn't afraid to have children, given the topic of the book he was writing. That book, Far From the Tree: Parents, Children, and the Search for Identity, explores what it's like for parents of children who are profoundly different or likely to be stigmatized — children with Down syndrome, deafness, autism, dwarfism, or who are prodigies, become criminals, or are conceived in rape."

<...>

Interview Highlights:

<...>

"On what it's like for mothers who have children conceived in rape

"All of the women were concerned about the ways in which their child might resemble the rapist psychologically. If the biological father of this child was capable of something so awful, is this child going to turn out to be capable of awful things? So that was one fear. And then next to it — and not entirely separable from it but also not entirely the same thing — the child was a constant reminder of the rape. As one of the women said to me, 'I have a friend who was raped and a few years later she was really able to get into a useful denial and say it never happened. I will never be able to say it never happened. I will always have that pair of eyes looking at me, that are evidence that yes, it did happen.' "

On what it's like for children to learn they were conceived in rape

"There's a central problem always for a woman who decides to keep a child conceived in rape, which is at what point do I actually tell my child where the child came from? So people who adopt children are usually now advised to tell the children from the very beginning of childhood, 'You are adopted, but you were adopted because we so much wanted a child and we are so lucky to have you,' and it's a part of their narrative. But rape is too disturbing and violent and the sexuality involved — it is too complicated to explain to a 2-year-old. ...

"I've met children who have been conceived in rape and who said that actually finding out had been a great relief — that it explained to them why their mother had had a child under odd or unusual circumstances. It explained why they sensed some ambivalence in a mother whom they had tried to please. ... But there were others who were so horrified by that news and felt so polluted by it that they acted out in various very destructive ways. ... They felt that other people would think, 'This person is a child of rape; this person is like a rapist; this person is untrustworthy; this person comes from dirt and darkness.' "
<...>

7 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Here's the kerfuffleless (yet significant) post that started the kerfuffle... (Original Post) TreasonousBastard Nov 2012 OP
Thanks TB. Gormy Cuss Nov 2012 #1
For people that accept evolution... ReasonableToo Nov 2012 #2
I think that humans have an inherent need to make order out of chaos Gormy Cuss Nov 2012 #3
I think the key is that the success starts with the will if the woman ReasonableToo Nov 2012 #6
I have absolutely no idea if there is a... TreasonousBastard Nov 2012 #4
The victim can rationalize all she wants... ReasonableToo Nov 2012 #5
Absolutely-- if it helps the mother, seeing a little bit of God in the child... TreasonousBastard Nov 2012 #7

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
1. Thanks TB.
Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:27 PM
Nov 2012

To everyone who saw or participated in the earlier thread, I asked Treasonous Bastard to repost this so that we could have a meaningful discussion of this book and topic.


From my perspective, I hadn't heard of this book and want to read it. I don't know any women who have made this choice and have only heard of one or two limited anecdotes. For those of you who don't go to Meta, one of our fellow DUers, Melinda, posted a first person perspective that all should read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=166272


ReasonableToo

(505 posts)
2. For people that accept evolution...
Fri Nov 16, 2012, 09:49 PM
Nov 2012

...I don't see how passing on the genes of a rapists is beneficial unless the victim/mother is really sure that she wants the child. I would never suggest that abortion should be forced on the victim but I just don't see how people can suggest that a pregnancy from rape is a "gift from god"

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
3. I think that humans have an inherent need to make order out of chaos
Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:02 PM
Nov 2012

and some do that through religion, others through logic or science. I also don't think that many women consider rapist behavior as a genetic marker. I suppose that those who do wouldn't want to bring the pregnancy to term, although they may choose to do so because of personal beliefs.

What I find interesting here is that there are real life examples of women who made the choice to have and raise a child conceived via rape and that the outcomes aren't all negative for the women or the children.

ReasonableToo

(505 posts)
6. I think the key is that the success starts with the will if the woman
Sat Nov 17, 2012, 02:04 PM
Nov 2012

It's basically a matter of whether not the child is wanted or not.

So many kids have tortuous lives - all because they were not wanted and not loved.

So many kids have exceptional lives against tremendous odds all because they were wanted and loved.

If we want to put a dent in the number of abortions. Then HELP women of little means raise kids in a safe environment.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
4. I have absolutely no idea if there is a...
Sat Nov 17, 2012, 05:18 AM
Nov 2012

"rape gene" that could be passed on. There might be genetic personality components that could lead to antisocial or criminal behavior, but I don't think anyone's clear on that yet. So, that shouldn't really be much of a factor in the decision process. But, decisions and emotions are complex and not entirely rational (nor should they be) and a lingering fear that the child will have some of the father's personality seems likely.

As to the gift from god thing, I read it as a rationalization. More would be said in the book with better explanations, but one of the many possible attitudes of these mothers to their children might be that they are the one good thing that came from the attack-- little gifts from god that made going through that horror worthwhile. That might not make sense to a lot of people, but most of us will never go through what she did and have no idea how she is thinking. If it helps her heal, what's the harm?

ReasonableToo

(505 posts)
5. The victim can rationalize all she wants...
Sat Nov 17, 2012, 01:51 PM
Nov 2012

...and I don't mean that in a bad way at all.

When MEN acting as LAWMAKERS dare to invoke the "gift from god" line as a way to take away a woman's right to decide then I cry foul.

That's the harm that I see.

It's also interesting that many years ago the position of the church WAS that life begins at birth. And before that it was a matter of monetary compensation rather than capital punishment if a fetus was harmed. It's not until the so-called "moral majority" decided to politicize abortion that the potential for "fiscal responsibility" went out the window with regard to abortion. And because the policy is only invoked for votes, it runs counter to the "bootstraps" and "you made your bed now lie in it" mentality after birth.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
7. Absolutely-- if it helps the mother, seeing a little bit of God in the child...
Sun Nov 18, 2012, 01:38 AM
Nov 2012

is a perfectly good thing and I see nothing wrong with a decent counselor encouraging her to think that way if it helps.

But, some sky pilot politician or preacher tellingher this is what God wants is close to criminal. Maybe should be criminal, but it certainly is an abomination. What decent God would want to see that sort of thing happen?



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