i have been accused by our host, that i hate men, and she will not allow that mentality.

[seabeyond]

This discussion thread was locked by Neoma (a host of the Feminists group).

since that comment opposes everything i believe in, everything that matters to me, i think it is important that i challenge that statement. over a month ago i wrote this post. it was not one that our host decided to present, to establish her claims.



seabeyond (68,910 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
8. i really try not to come in this forum, but this post is really about us.

Last edited Sat Jan 7, 2012, 02:03 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

and i think this is so important to say.

feminists, me, i am a mom with two sons. i have a husband i love very much. a father, two brothers and 5 nephews. two nephews i am close with and are dependent on me as the mom figure. all of these men and boys are very special and i love them, care for them and want the best for them.

as a feminist, why would their interests NOT be the highest priority for me. they are no less and they are not loved less, than myself, or the few nieces i have in my life.

what is healthy and balanced, grounded, authentic for men, well only enhance a womans life. and the same works the other way.

allowing each individual to have the control over their own empowerment is beneficial to all.

it is only when we try to make one less, that things become imbalanced and issues arise.

in the many gender issue threads i have been in, my sole purpose is the health for all. the best for all. because ultimately that creates a win win win. win for me (woman). win for you (man). and win for us (society). i hope one never finds in my post that i have ever deviated from that goal. it is the goal i hear from most all feminist. i think the message is often ignored or contaminated to continue a battle between the two genders. i think it is ignored to create feminists as the evil of all evils. i cannot imagine any feminist being successful without the belief that we all must be equal.

raising two boys and spending a lifetime with mostly boys and men, i see a lot of issues with the male gender (as i see a lot with the female gender). i address them often, because without those healed and recognized, women dont have much of a chance, either. it benefits us all.

now, i will try to stay out of your guys business, again, lol. but, it is something i feel so strongly about. this issue is my top priority in my RL today. and i couldnt let it go unsaid. and i was not hearing it from others.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1114206#post8

[Autumn]

1. Ducking in just to say that this right here

" what is healthy and balanced, grounded, authentic for men, well only enhance a womans life. and the same works the other way."

Now I'm out of here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. We are all in this together. n/t

[roguevalley]

10. man, this place is hopping.

[maddezmom]

2. where did she say you hated men?

I must have missed it.

[yardwork]

4. Yes, let's see some proof for that statement.

[BlueIris]

14. In her most recent pinned thread, Neoma singled out a post seabeyond made

in which seabeyond wrote:

"maybe you are not a woman, maybe you have not experienced the aggressive attack on females the last decade from all sides. only to see us continually taking steps backward on being treated as viable, useful, respected members of society. and yet still...we continue with our voice, fighting time and again. explaining our position and why it is so very important, not only to us, but for you, and for our children, both genders.

and when we do speak up, we are continually hit with insults, attacks on our sexuality, patronized, condescended to, and told we don't have a thick enough skin.

yet still, we continued a reasoned conversation, hoping there will be a point of understanding."

Of this post by seabeyond, Neoma wrote:

"This is the type of behavior I will not tolerate, from a co-host or from anyone else. Nobody should post that someone is or isn't a man, or is or isn't black, or is or isn't white, or is or isn't a woman, or anything like that without some sort of proof. It's offensive to say that your opinions are invalid because you aren't a woman. It's highly inappropriate, especially for a co-host."

I think this is the exchange seabeyond is referring to. If it is not, sea, feel free to correct me.

For the record, I see nothing in the post Neoma targeted that makes me believe seabeyond's post is anti-male, promotes anti-male sexism, or dismisses the male perspective on women's issues as "invalid."

I read it as a post in which seabeyond was simply stating she believed that perhaps a poster could not fully understand the war on women because that poster (rrneck) had not been experiencing it in the same way. Seabeyond's post was polite and well reasoned. It was a criticism of the war on women not any individual poster, male or female, or men or women generally. Also, seabeyond was not questioning whether or not the poster was male or female, asking for "proof" of anyone's identity, slamming LGBTIQ posters or doing anything else offensive related to sex, gender or orientation. Sea was acknowledging that she didn't know anything about that poster or whether or not that person could experience what it is like to be a victim of misogyny in the same way seabeyond could. This is a far cry from saying a man's opinions aren't valid because he isn't a woman.

I really am trying to move beyond these disputes, but I felt I needed to make this post because of all the accusations tossed around in the last week, Neoma's inaccurate characterization of this post by seabeyond was the most outrageous.

[redqueen]

15. Thank you. nt

[yardwork]

25. Seabeyond's post is ambiguous, I think. "Maybe you are not a woman..." could be read

as saying that only women have "experienced the aggressive attack on females..."

The larger context is that if that were the only post here in which it was suggested that only women (and "regular" women, at that, not transgender women or butch lesbians, for example) have a right to post in this forum, we would not be having this conversation.

[Ms. Toad]

27. I'll probably regret this, since I've been staying out of it.

But if you are correct about the comment seabeyond is posting about, it seems to me that it ought to be acknowledged that there is a bit of hyperbole going on in both directions.

My summary - trying to be as neutral as I can be:

seabeyond made a post hypothesizing that the speaker might not be a woman and might not understand that women often experience things differently than men.

Neoma characterizes that suggestion as declaring the gender of the speaker and claiming the speaker's opinions are not valid because the speaker is not male.

seabeyond describes Neoma's characterization as stating sebeyond hates men.

seabeyond made a relatively innocuous statement, and a valid observation by any feminist standards I am aware of. The standard feminist mantra used to be "the personal is political" - that is what that mantra means - our politics as feminists are informed by our experiences, and we experience life differently than we would if we were men.

To Neoma - Perhaps seabeyond's observation could be misinterpreted- but it is hyperbole to read the statement as denying that men's opinions are valid (or claming any knowledge of the speaker's gender).

To seabeyond - You are correct - what you said does not match Neoma's interpretation of it. BUT, it is also hyperbole to read her incorrect interpretation as saying you hate men.

redqueen has wisely asked everyone to stand down. I am only adding this because it seems to me that the hyperbole in this exchange is being described as one sided, and my observation is that it is mutual - and describing it as one sided only serves to keep the pot simmering.

Now I'll crawl back in my bunker.

[maddezmom]

30. thanks for posting

agree with your post.

[obamanut2012]

6. As did I

[Angry Dragon]

3. I have read many of your posts over the course of time

and NOT ONCE have I felt any hate towards men or boys from you




However I do wish you would use more Capital letters

[WingDinger]

5. End of story

seabeyond (68,914 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

15. We are all in this together.

we really are and the fool that think we are not. i hope to convey this in about every one of my posts. also

"thinking one must lose, so the other can gain."... this is one o my favorite angles of it all. men struggle to hold onto, women also

[roguevalley]

11. no one can speak for another. all of us have our own experiences. I come from a time when

women could be mommy, nurse or secretary. Men were always right, you were always wrong. That's what formed a lot of what I am and who I am. No one speaks for me. We all speak for ourselves.

[ZombieHorde]

8. Seabeyond has always been very kind and respectful toward me (a man),

even when we disagree on issues. Seabeyond returns respect with respect.

I have been staying out of this fight because I am not sure what is best, but I do want to reinforce seabeyond's claim in this OP. She is not a man hater. We don't always agree, but she is awesome.

[tammywammy]

9. Can you please provide a link to such an accusation?

I would like to read said post myself before making any judgments, though I would say you're not a 'man hater'.

[BlueIris]

16. I believe it is in Neoma's most recent pinned thread.

(Again, if this is not the accusation seabeyond is talking about here, sea should correct me.)

You can also read my post above for my take on the accusation Neoma made.

Also, while I don't want to encourage anyone to continue the flame wars, maybe those of you demanding proof of an established event should try to read through all the threads encompassing this crisis before you comment.

I realize they can take a long time to sort through (reading them all took me several hours.) Yet, reading them all for yourself will save you a lot of time, (that you won't have to waste asking other people to do your catch up work for you) and may even help you form your own opinions about what went down here.

[tammywammy]

26. Thank you for pointing it out

I read that much earlier today and read it differently, but I see what you're saying.

Thanks

[The empressof all]

12. I am sorry you feel offended

No one likes to see anyones feelings hurt. But continuing this fight is just not healthy for this group... At some point we need to let go of the anger and hostility. It's not helpful. Believe me...I can't imagine anyone here thinks you are a man hater.

I do understand that it's sad when things don't go the way you want them to but I really wish we could all stop picking at each other and discuss things that matter in the real world not some battle for territory. I am willing to try.

This will eventually work itself out without us eating our own.

PEACE!

[Aerows]

13. Don't you know that you can't discuss Gender

In the Gender and Orientation forums?

I mean, what's next? People discussing homosexuality in the LGBT forum? How dare they. Next we'll have Jewish people discussing Judaism in the Jewish faith forum. They should be discussing Judaism through the lens of Christianity!

How dare people discuss feminism as women, LGBT people discuss homosexuality and trans matters without being disparaged. And those women-identified people, well, I might be a woman identified woman from birth, but so help me, if you are woman identified, well, I must inspect your privates before you post here because you might not be strongly identified enough!

[kdmorris]

17. So is this your way of saying that you can't allow this to die

and will continue this fight?

Peace, seabeyond. Just stop. There is no gain to this in-fighting.

[redqueen]

18. She posted this, a defense of a perceived mischaracterization, before 9 am this morning.

She has not posted in it again.

I don't see any need to press her to stop, considering that she has not participated in this discussion since she posted the OP as a defense.

[kdmorris]

21. Oh... whoops

My bad then. In my time zone, it was after 9 AM and she is still not letting it go in the host forum either.

I will be more careful to check the times on the posts, then.

[redqueen]

23. Sorry...

I can't see what goes on in the hosts forum, so I missed that part. No hard feelings, I hope.

[kdmorris]

24. No, you had a point

I should be more careful to look at what I'm posting to (and will).

No hard feelings.

[Aerows]

22. No offense

But judging from some of the things getting hurled from both Iverglas and Neoma, neither of them have any business being hosts until they get some sensitivity training.

That's just my opinion though, so feel free to shitcan it.

[OriginalGeek]

19. I don't guess I know Neoma much

But I have once conversed with SeaBeyond and I've read her posts every day since I came to DU and I am thankful she is here. I can honestly say that reading her posts is helping to make me a better man.

I can't for the life of me figure out how I would get that impression of her if she hated men.

[Aerows]

20. I see one host

I don't see anyone else.

Sea, I wouldn't take the opinions of one person to heart. I'm a lesbian that has a loving partner and a family. If anyone has criticisms of that, well, I honestly don't care.

I guess that means I hate men, too.

I guess that means I hate everyone that isn't in the same family relationship as I am.

You know what? It looks like projection to me, because I am part of a larger community that doesn't discriminate against people over sexuality, religion, or race. It's just fact that we work together, learn together and live together.

[Rex]

28. My 2 cents

Screw what other people think about you, always know someone out there loves you and that is worth more then gold or any wealth the material world can produce.



"It's just fact that we work together, learn together and live together."

[Aerows]

29. Agreed

That's the best part of knowing who you are, who loves you and who will still adore you if you come home looking like a pet lost for 3 days

Thanks for reminding me of that Rex