Old I/P guidelines (for reference)

[Lithos]

This discussion thread is pinned.

Last edited Sun May 30, 2021, 12:43 AM - Edit history (2)

Welcome to the Democratic Underground Israeli/Palestinian Affairs discussion forum. As you know, this is where you may discuss issues surrounding the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. These can be very emotional issues for many. In order to facilitate rational discourse, we have found it wise to implement a few guidelines to supplement the http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html" (general DU rules) for discussing I/P issues that one will not find elsewhere on the website.
Please take some time to familiarize yourself with the following guidelines. Offending threads will be locked or pulled. Offending posts may be deleted. Those who repeatedly violate these guidelines may be banned. If you are in doubt, please Private Message the forum moderators.

Who is Welcome In the I/P Forum, who is not:

• We welcome progressives of all stripes and specifically note the I/P forum has many progressives whose affinity lie on opposite ends of the I/P debate. Do not assume that because someone is Pro-Israeli or Pro-Palestinian they are not progressive. A good rule of thumb for those who will do well are those who are actively seeking a peaceful and respectful settlement and are genuinely interested in a rational discourse of events in the I/P conflict.
• If you feel great affinity to groups who are promoting hate in the Middle East such as Kahane, or Hamas; feel there is a Jewish conspiracy governing US foreign policy or control of the media; or believe supporters of Islam or Palestinian Nationalism are terrorists, then you are probably likely to be banned.

Concerning the overall nature of the post:

• Do not embed graphics or photographs of any kind into your messages. Maps or statistical graphs are okay.
• Do not put anything in your signature line that has any relation to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.


• Do not start a Poll in the I/P forum.


• Do not start a new thread on a topic that has already been covered. Duplicates will be locked or deleted.

Proper subject matter:
New Threads

• New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece. They may not be based on editorial cartoons or photographs. Citations and references should include a link to the original source. Exceptions will be allowed if, based on prior approval, the moderators feel a thread is appropriate.
• All threads must be based on material originally published no more than 3 weeks ago. The "clock" does not restart if an article is republished. Exceptions will be allowed, if based on prior approval, the moderators feel a thread is appropriate.
• The subject heading for threads must contain the title of the source article. The only exception is when you must shorten long titles or to make the subject of the article more clear.
• Editorializations and comments are to be saved for the Message body and must be separate and distinct from the text of the article.

General

• Do not selectively quote articles with the intent to change the original meaning.
• Do not discuss the truthfulness and/or stupidity of various religions. Do not assume you know what someone believes simply because they practice a certain religion.
• Do not make over-sweeping or stereotypical generalizations of any group or individual. This includes making statements, either overtly or subtly, which are Anti-Semitic or Anti-Muslim.
• Please stay on topic. Do not jump into an unrelated discussion and introduce a barely-relevant tangent in order to bring up your pet issue.

Civility

• To re-emphasize, the General Rules, "http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html"], still apply for expected civility and behavior.
• Do not publicly accuse someone of being a conservative. If you feel such a comment is warranted, you may do so privately using the "Alert" button.
• Do not publicly accuse anyone of anti-Semitism, racism, or any bigoted bias. If you feel such a comment is warranted, you may do so privately using the "Alert" button.
• Inflammatory material that adds nothing to the debate is likely to be locked or deleted.
• Do not post accusations of anti-Semitism, racism, bigotry, personal attacks, plagiarism, duplicate threads or any other rules violation. This includes claims against yourself or other people. Such posts add nothing to the discussion and often create more problems than the original rules violation. Use the "Alert" button instead, the moderators will deal with the post as soon as they are able.

A note on sources:

• Please use discretion when referencing obviously biased or factually questionable material. Vanity websites are generally not as credible as the New York Times, the Washington Post or the UK Guardian and are likely to be locked. A good rule of thumb is to ask yourself is the author readily identifiable and likely to be cited by the mainline world press or encountered in an alternate format (mass-published book, academic journal, newspaper article, radio or TV show).
• Please avoid posting "information" from overtly racist websites. A good, but not exhaustive, guide is Franklin's Hate Directory (www.hatedirectory.com).
• Posting from Whatreallyhappened.com, Chronwatch.com or Debka.com is specifically not allowed.

Proper use of certain words:

• Please exercise extreme caution and sensitivity when using the words "anti-Semitism" or "Zionism." There is a wide range of opinion on the meaning of these words. If you must use them, please make sure your intended meaning is clear.
• Do not use the term "Zionist" to mean "Jew" or "Israeli." Do not use the term "Jew" to mean "Israeli".
• Do not call Palestinians "terrorists" unless you are actually talking about people who blow up cafes or busses filled with civilians.
• Do not compare Middle East regional leaders and parties to Hitler or the Nazis. Use of these terms is considered inflammatory and should be avoided.
• Do not call other members of this message board "terror apologist," "Palestinian apologist," "Israeli apologist," "Nazi," "Fascist," "Sharonist," "Likudist", etc.

Our goal is to provide a forum where issues concerning Israel and Palestine may be discussed openly but intelligently in an atmosphere of mutual respect for opposing sides. Please help us towards this end. If you have any questions, please contact the board monitors or the site administrators.

Thank you

Edit notes:

- 2021-May-30. Some long needed format changes caused by the deprecation of some formatting pieces. One spelling change (plagerism -> plagiarism) No substantive changes to the actual rules were made.

[Lithos]

1. At this point...

Not sure how anyone on a Jury would be able to enforce the TOS extensions including:

- Apologist accusations
- Nazi comparisons
- Zionist/Jew; Palestinian/Terrorist conflations
- Use of images, etc.
- Bigotry bias (which has in the past proven to range for blatantly obvious to subtle.)

I have asked Skinner how that would work and how a Jury would know just how this plays out as a general rule in I/P. I've not gotten an answer yet.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. I might be confused, but don't the admin or that MIR lot deal with TOS violations?

A jury just deals with the post itself and decides if it's a violation of the statement of purpose for the group. So if we alert on any posts here, we just point to the old guidelines (or hopefully a revised new flashy edition) and say it's against the statement of purpose?

[Lithos]

4. A small future fact

The admins are trying to work themselves out of a job.

The jury system will not work two different TOS's well, or one which requires deeper subject knowledge.

L-

[Violet_Crumble]

5. The same problem would affect quite a few groups I suspect...

The first one that sprang to mind for me is what used to be the Gungeon. I don't know the first thing about guns, except that I don't like them, and if I ended up on a jury for an alert from that group, I wouldn't have any deep subject knowledge at all. I'd just have to judge the post based on what the statement of purpose for the group is and hope for the best. When it comes to the do's and dont's of the old forum guidelines, most of them don't need deep subject knowledge. If someone calls another person a name like terrorist apologist or Likudnik, it should be a no-brainer that it's got to be hidden, coz the guidelines don't allow it. And when it comes to bigoted sources, where someone on a jury who hasn't had any exposure to it might get a bit lost, it might help to put a list of bigoted sources in the statement of purpose. Which will end up being a long toilet roll that very few might possibly read, but it's an idea...

Is there any middle ground between using the Jury service system and the old moderating system? I can't think of any, but I wish there was something...

[Lithos]

6. When you talk about RKBA

You get into a whole convoluted bit. At its best it is a discussion about the 2nd Amendment, but at its worst it is a flagrant excuse for people who are promoting other agendas.

The forums which has the biggest problem are those involving Civil Rights which does include GLBT, RT and I/P to a large extent. In many respects, you have to have paid your dues before certain topics are even potentially explorable what with the weight of history, the code words and loaded language which often are used and abused by those with agendas.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. I'm not good at acronyms. What's RKBA?

When it comes to the jury system, I'm sure it'll work well enough for civility issues and people calling each other morons and fascists, but after what I saw in GD this morning, I don't think it's going to work when it comes to alerts concerning bigotry against minority groups, though it sure worked well enough for NASCAR fans being stereotyped in the same thread, I noticed.

[oberliner]

12. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms

US Constitution: 2nd Amendment.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Thanks. The K had me stumped...

One of my guesses was 'Right....uh...uh...what starts with K?...Bear....Arms'

[WSSlover]

29. Question:

US Constitution: 2nd Amendment.

Why do so many people insist on supporting the 2nd Amendment of the U. S. Constitution, even though it's outdated? Beats me.

[oberliner]

8. So are we on the honor system here?

Should posts that violate these rules be alerted on or what?

[Violet_Crumble]

2. You should pin this thread....

I figure right now the only thing that can really be enforced is the stuff about new threads, right?

[Crunchy Frog]

9. So then is the new I/P group pretty much exactly the same as the old one?

That's my impression anyway.

I had been hoping to get a chance to see how it would operate under the new DU system. I was hoping to see a somewhat different dynamic emerge, since I didn't think much of the dynamic on the old board.

Oh well, I guess I'll just put everyone back on ignore that I had on the old DU, and mainly lurk.

[Lithos]

10. LOL

No, it won't operate the same. I reposted the above as a starting point.

L-

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Are we supposed to give some input with a view to revising the old guidelines?

Or are you going to go over them yrself? If yr looking for input, here's something from me, as I'm in a strictly meta-mood tonight. I've just picked a few bits and not gone over the entire thing...

Under the General heading, ditch the first and last, not coz they're not good, but because going offtopic and selectively quoting things was an everyday happening in the old forum and I don't see how with this new system they could be enforced anyway.

Under Proper use of certain words, I haven't seen anyone call another poster a "Sharonist" since, well, Jabba had his stroke and left the political arena. I guess it could be replaced with "Nuttyist" but that's just coz I like the sound of it and I could even encourage people to use it in order to justify it sitting there in the guidelines!

One specifically that I think should be included is something along the lines of "Don't make sweeping negative generalisations about either Israeli or Palestinian society and culture." There's been more than a few posts doing exactly that in the past, and that's not at all conducive to any sort of constructive discussion...

I dunno. The guidelines need to be compressed a bit so it's not a toilet-roll of rules, and maybe formatted in a way that people should be able to easily copy'n'paste the bit that the post they've alerted on violates the guidelines. Coz I don't think many people selected for a jury are going to have enough motivation or interest to wade through the guidelines and are probably just itching to get back to whatever they were doing before they got the alert...

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Are these rules in effect?

[Lithos]

16. the ones concerning content are

The TOS ones are only to the extent the Jury system will allow. Truthfully, it is hit or miss to pretty much everyone's chagrin.

L-

[Behind the Aegis]

17. OK...another quick question.

If a thread is a SOP violation, or alerted as such, doesn't it just go to you? Also, does the "alerter" get a decision? I am still trying to figure out the "ins and outs" of the new system. Also, take a look at: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12434911 if you have a moment. Thanks.

[gaelic]

18. Thanks for the Info

[Violet_Crumble]

19. I'm not very impressed with how the group has fared under the new system...

I've seen blatantly bigoted* posts be let stand by juries, and then yesterday seen the mother of all frivolous alerts luck out when it came to a jury who voted to hide a post that was clearly sarcastic and actually was kinda humourous. It just kind of sucks a lot nowadays, and imo the group has taken a nosedive into bland and humourless territory.


* The most recent ones I've seen is one that was very blood-libelly but I got a 3-3 result when I alerted and so it's not hidden. No-one who voted to let it stand made a comment, btw. The other was a post portraying Palestinians in very RW terms as something akin to sucking off the public teat and being welfare frauds etc. That one also had a split result with one juror who voted to let it stand stating their agreement with what was said.

[Ruby the Liberal]

20. I can't imagine a jury ever being effective in this group, honestly.

Too many emotions on the topic (why it is a group in the first place). If I didn't understand this conflict as well as I do, I would likely decline jury duty on posts in here.

[LeftishBrit]

21. I was wondering yet again if there could be a look at sources

Someone linked to uruknet recently. The thread did get locked, but not for about 100 posts. Also, there has been increasing use of right-wing American and British sources. If your source includes either Melanie Phillips OR IfAmericansKnew OR AmericanConservative in its blogroll, the chances are that it's not a very good source!

At one point, I proposed that one should allow right-wing Middle Eastern sources, but not right-wing British or American sources, By now, I'm getting more tempted to propose a ban on the RW Middle Eastern sources too, unless the poster makes clear that they are being used to show one point of view in the ME, not because the poster approves of them.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. I'm going to second that request...

It's kind of timely reading yr post after the source that's been used for an OP posted today in this group. I wish, though I figure it'll never happen, that ALL RW sources be banned from this group, as well as any that peddle bigotry against Jews or Arabs/Muslims. And repeat offenders should be blocked from the group if they continue to post links to those sorts of sites.

I really miss DU2, even with the flaws it had *sigh*

[shira]

23. Baffling hidden OP....

Last edited Fri Aug 24, 2012, 12:14 PM - Edit history (2)

The sinister alliance of the Islamist-Marxist axis
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-sinister-alliance-of-the-islamist-marxist-axis/

Whoever alerted on this wrote this was something "Free Republic" would run; that it bashed all leftists and Muslims, etc.

The author of the article couldn't possibly be more respected (Robert Wistrich who is one of the world's foremost and esteemed authorities on anti-semitism). He's not a right-winger, but like most elected democrats, he's a liberal.

A jury voted 5-1 to hide the OP.

What gives?

===================

ETA:

Here's the alert that led to hiding the OP...

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Shira is posting a blog post that one could easily find on Freerepublic; "The left is evil, Islam is evil, people were killed in France because France is liberal," all written by a fellow who was a major adviser for the blatantly islamophobic film "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West."

I get the feeling many here are confused and therefore equate criticism of Leftists with criticism of all liberals (democrats included).

Same WRT folks equating criticism of extreme Islamists with criticism of all Muslims in general (liberals included too).

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

24. I'm curious.

Do the I/P rules still apply to I/P or is any material acceptable as long as it takes place in Israel?

Isn't I/P a place to discuss I/P related issues?

[Lithos]

25. The history has always to allow material related to Israel and/or Palestine here

n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

26. The history doesn't seem to be supported by the I/P guidlnes.

Welcome to the Democratic Underground Israeli/Palestinian Affairs discussion forum. As you know, this is where you may discuss issues surrounding the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. These can be very emotional issues for many. In order to facilitate rational discourse, we have found it wise to implement a few guidelines to supplement the general DU rules for discussing I/P issues that one will not find elsewhere on the website.

There just seems, on occasion, to be OPs posted that would be more at home in General Discussion.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

27. To Lithos.

I'm curious. Are the rules so deprecated as they no longer apply?

This is related to no post in general, but it seems that in some respect there is an anything goes policy.

Perhaps the group terms need to be updated for relevancy?


Best,

RDO

[Lithos]

28. The rules are not deprecated and they still apply

If anything the free for all in the other forums during the recent turn of events in Gaza emphasize their relevancy.

If you find something you feel amiss, then please alert.

L-

[Violet_Crumble]

30. That response didn't date too well

Of course, not much would after nearly 10 years.

Anyway, don't mind me. After that horrendous Cranberries OP I'm off to start a weekly thread about the new podcast my Westie does. She looks very cute and snarls ineffectually whenever Bibi calls anyone a terrorist.

Not my exact doggo, but they all look similar, though slightly less cute than mine

[Lithos]

31. Hi, good to see you, my friend

And those who think I'm being biased - I consider those who have stuck it out a friend.

I am glad you are well. I must assume you are no longer in Uni, but have moved into one of life's other phases. I think you served several terms as a moderator for DU3. I purposefully avoided it as I was a mod for 10+ years on the original DU and DU2 and needed the retirement. A podcast about a Westie sounds extremely fun - if you want, send me the name in DM, I will add it to my podcast list. I wish you luck to to have an engaging audience and maybe earn enough coin to give some wonderful treats to your baby.

DU - I would think even now the same rules are still applicable. The rules have always been governed by the idea both sides have huge issues which people have created deliberate blinders towards. The desire was to keep the field clear and keep out the bias and force people. to talk "raw" and without trying to browbeat others down. People consistently come in thinking one side is somehow morally clean as the other side did something so outrageous. Too many logical fallacies. When times like these happen, emotions are running hard - but this is a forum for discussion - people have to take the pause and engage appropriately

Both Hamas, Hezbollah, and Netanyahu's Israel have gone towards increasing extremes. I do not think the actual population has (for various reasons). I am crying at this moment because of how many innocent people are going to have to pay with their lives.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. It's great to see you again, too

It's been a long, long time. I still remember all those years ago when I first ventured into the I/P forum and you picked me up on calling another DUer a Liberal. The capitalisation slipped past everyone, but not you I miss Jack Rabbit, bemildred, and Adoneus, as well as a few others.

I figured the guidelines would still apply, especially now. I did look at GD a bit earlier and it's a bit of a trainwreck. If hyperbole, impotent rage and generalisations could solve the conflict, I think GD would solve it singlehandedly.

I knew the attack on Israel was bad when I posted, but the full extent of just how bad wasn't clear to me till the next day. What seems clear to me is that Hamas is trying to drag Israel into a trap, and led by Netanyahu, Israel is going to rush into it and so many Israelis and Palestinians are going to die. It's so, so depressing...