Will This be the Last Anti-Israel Generation?

[Mosby]

For the past several decades discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been driven by full-time anti-Israel researchers and writers. This coterie of academics and authors, from Noam Chomsky to Peter Beinart, constantly popped up on panels and had their ideas amplified. Today's Middle East realities, with new peace agreements and concerns about China's emerging role, has less time to focus on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Consequently we are likely seeing the last generation of professional Israel critics.

Anyone who grew up in the 1990s and early 2000s, the period of the Oslo Accords and Second Intifada, got used to the idea that Israel's existence was up for debate. It was taken for granted that there was something called "opposition to Israel" and no shortage of ink was spilled on the question of Israel's "right to exist." Only those stuck in the era of the Oslo Accords and earlier, when harsh conflict between Israel and the Arab states was the norm, could suggest that the whole country of Israel might not exist one day. Now, with 70 years' hindsight, it is clear that Israel does exist like some 200 other countries and it isn't going to be fundamentally changed.

Nevertheless, in the U.S. and some other Western countries there are still academic and activist panel discussions about the "one-state solution," usually involving only non-Palestinians who sit and discuss whether Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank can be shoehorned into some kind of Frankenstein-like state that combines Israel with the autonomous Palestinian Authority and Hamas-run Gaza. Why do people even discuss this? They don't discuss turning India, Pakistan and Bangladesh into "one state" or combining Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and Kosovo back into "one state." Only with Israel is one-state solution activism given credence, though primarily in Western academic and far-left journalistic circles.

https://www.newsweek.com/will-this-last-anti-israel-generation-opinion-1581642

[The Magistrate]

1. The Cold Fact, Sir

Is that in the United States political support for Israel in on the wain, and will likely continue to be. The reasons why have little to do with academic activists.

People of Cold War generations felt an active affinity for Israel, a cultural overlap, in which, should one substitute Arab for Apache, identity as a compatriot on a different frontier was readily felt. This is a declining demographic, and doesn't include many under fifty.

Israel's Likud government attached itself to the evangelical white right, which damn near everyone else is hostile to in some degree. This is particularly marked in the young. and their distaste for Israel's most fervent supporters naturally edges over into an unfavorable view of what is supported by the evangelical white right.

[Mosby]

3. I think there are a lot of things happening.

Last edited Sat Apr 10, 2021, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)

RW Christian support in the US for Israel is solid and growing. There are probably more Christian Zionists in the US than Jewish ones. Republicans can now use the IP issue as a wedge.

US liberals/progressives are continuing to embrace non-interventionism for various reasons, the first being the iraq/afhan wars, which are being viewed incorrectly as American Imperialism - that is an invention of the far left and Russia. The second reason is the Russian and libertarian influence, who have successfully argued on social media to liberals that the US and Israel are evil and need to mind their own business.

The truth is that Israel doesn't need US support, which says a lot more about the US than Israel.

The Arab spring brought us more failed nations, so the apathy you refer to isn't going to affect Israelis, it's going to affect the 6 million+ Palestinian "refugees" we help subsidize and the aid we pay to third world countries like Egypt and Afghanistan.

The world is moving past the IP conflict.

Eta I think the authors point is that the business of anti-israelism is fading, and the websites and writers are moving on to other things.

You know, the modoweisses, memos, ei, whatreallyhappened, ifamericanskbew, rense, prisonplanet, veteranstoday, aljazeera, alarabya, al manar etc etc.

[The Magistrate]

9. Relying On Right Wing Political Support, Sir

Is the kiss of death. Not only is that movement disliked by all who aren't actually part of it, it is a dwindling tendency within the country, and growing less powerful over time.

It is hard to take seriously an argument that boils down to 'if it weren't for outside agitators we'd have more support on the left here'. People are certainly capable of looking at events and coming to their own view of their rights and wrongs, and when these do not jibe with yours, that is not because they have been duped by evil influences, and proclaiming they have been gains you nothing.

I do agree the world is moving past this matter, and it's possible to see ways this might be to the benefit of Israel, and ways it might be to Israel's detriment. That the world comes to care little may result in lessening violent feelings, it may also result in fewer people caring whether Israel exist or not.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. I couldn't agree more...

A post that begins with saying that there's a lot of support for Israel from the same US extremist 'Christian' RW bunch that supports Trump and his attempts to gut US democracy isn't a great start to a compelling argument...

I think too that the world has moved past the I/P conflict. After all, there's the rise of China, Russia being Russia and a host of other things (Trumpism!!!) to draw our attention away from a totally tragic and avoidable mess. I don't think it's going to end up benefitting Israel. While the world looks elsewhere Israel has the opportunity to do whatever it wants to the Palestinians, but I don't think it takes much for the eyes of the world to focus back on that region of the world and judge harshly when it sees what's going on. I know as someone who doesn't live in the US and sees it from a more global perspective, the blind and icky adulation by a large portion of Israelis didn't garner Israel much support from anyone other than those in the cult of Trump.

How I've changed since I was last here regularly is I no longer believe there'll be a two-state solution and I support the eventual and inevitable creation of one secular state encompassing Israel, the West Bank and Gaza led by a democratic multiparty system that doesn't discriminate against its people based on their religion. I know that's a high bar to set, as we've seen recently how fragile democracy can be with the US as an example, but I'm an idealist. Call the state Israel for all I care, but everyone who lives within the borders needs to be treated with the same level of respect and have the same protections.

[Mosby]

21. where did i mention trump?

my first sentence was a reply to magistrates first sentence.

The Cold Fact, Sir

Is that in the United States political support for Israel in on the wain, and will likely continue to be

Is not factually correct, to wit:

Overall, support for Israel has been on the upswing since 1967
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/american-public-opinion-toward-israel-an-overview

what makes you think all RW Christians are extremists? can you present evidence for that assertion?

[WHITT]

2. Interesting

that you and others misrepresent anti-RightWing as "anti-Israel".

Additionally, I seriously doubt this will be the "last" "generation" to oppose Illegal Military Occupation, Apartheid, and Fascism.

[Karadeniz]

4. My thought, too.

[sabbat hunter]

8. Yes or no

Do you think an Israel should exist, separate from any Palestinian state.

[WHITT]

10. Why

would you ask such a silly question?

[sabbat hunter]

11. Why is it silly

Just answer the question please

[WHITT]

12. It Is SILLY

because under international law, NO state or sub-state has an inherent 'right to exist'. Generally speaking, states exist because groups of people amass enough political and economic power to make territorial claims and establish governments.

(For anyone unfamiliar with international law, by "state", they are referencing nations, not what Americans reference as "states" )



Therefore, it's not for me or anyone else to say, so why would you ask such a silly question?

[aranthus]

14. So let's re-phrase the question.

Do the Jews of Israel have the right to have their own state in Israel?

[WHITT]

15. You Mean

expelling all non-Jews, which is about 25%-30% of the population?

I've repeatedly seen Likud members in the well of the Knesset yelling that the Palestinians should be "pushed into the sea".

[aranthus]

19. Instead of re-phrasing the question to be something it wasn't why not just give a straight answer?

No text.

[WHITT]

24. Just Going By What You Posted

I'm attempting to delineate the question.

You posted "Do the Jews of Israel..."

In plain English that means just the Jews, which by default means everyone else would be required to be expelled, which aligns with the Likud's position that the Palestinians should be "pushed into the sea". I'm not certain of the Likud's position on the rest of the non-Jewish population, whether it's a case of 'First they came for the Palestinians...'.

Then rest of your post, "...the right to have their own state..."

Do you mean a state of democracy or apartheid?

[aranthus]

25. I mean a state where the majority culture is Jewish.

Yes, a democracy.

[WHITT]

26. Well, If It's 'One Man One Vote'

then they can do whatever they want, and the Likud would be a distinct minority, and never come to power again.

[aranthus]

27. How do you get there?

Israel is already a democracy, and a majority Jewish country, and Netanyahu isn't out of office yet.

[WHITT]

28. Not Only Is Israel Not Democracy

it doesn't even have a constitution. Even the Palestinians have a constitution.

[aranthus]

29. England doesn't have a constitution.

So how do you define a democracy?

[WHITT]

30. Asked And Answered

One man one vote.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Not if it means they discriminate against anyone there who isn't Jewish...

And as long as they've clear on that whole really simple concept of the West Bank and Gaza not being part of Israel.

[aranthus]

20. Not that I'm in favor of discrimination, but..,.

What state doesn't discriminate even a little? And what about all of those countries that do? If only perfectly non-discriminatory countries have a right to exist, I'd bet serous money that would be almost all of them.

[treestar]

31. Israel is the only country that goes on about its

"right to exist."

True it is not a matter of rights. It's a matter of might.

It is indeed silly. Does the USA have a right to exist? Some would say no. But it will continue to exist as long as it has the power to.

Does North Korea have a right to exist? Some might say no. But it does. It will exist as long as it can.

[aranthus]

32. Then the Arabs, you and anyone else

have no cause to demand a Palestinian state. If Israel has no right to exist, then neither does Palestine. Further, since international law is made by countries, and if they have no right to exist, then international law has no moral existence, and who cares if any country follows it? Then no one has rights under international law (so no right of return). Further, since the entire point of denying Israel's right to exist is to further the Arab/Palestinian/Leftist war against Israel's existence, then those parties have no leg to stand on to complain about what Israel does to defend its existence.

[treestar]

33. But then don't the Palestinians have the right to exist?

I suppose they must have a right to an existent state. If they can't because Israel is too strong and is taking their land by might, then let Israel do it just like any other aggressive state actor, and on its own, too. Though the US does like to get itself into conflicts of others and sell arms to warring parties.

Israel was created in an artificial way, too. Hindsight - they should have just immigrated until they had taken the area over, like the Europeans took America. Would not have been quite so "in your face" to the Palestinians. Human nature, IMO, made it inevitable. But as is so often pointed out, the Palestinians there did not have a state or functioning immigration restrictions.

[aranthus]

34. Of course they do.

But like any other right, the right to exist comes with obligations. The reason that the Palestinians don't have state is that they tried to take the Israeli state away from the Jews.

And the Jews did legally immigrate to what became Israel, and when they were numerous and organized enough, they created a state. Nothing artificial about it.

[treestar]

35. I thought the British helped it

along, and it was "declared" in a way that did not come about over as long a period of time as it might have taken. To say the Palestinians tried to take the state away - it was the Palestinians that were "there first." Which is why they are likened to the Native Americans. Israel is still taking land away - more and more. Though they may have not had an official "state" or army to defend it, they did live there in a more permanent way than North American Native American tribes were. Some were still nomadic. The Palestinians had settled as farmers.

Many of them fled, and opposed it, but that should not be so unforgivable, as who wouldn't in that situation? Opposition should have been expected and planned for with ways other than force.

[sabbat hunter]

36. Palestina Syria

As it was called under the Romans and something similar under the Turks covered more area than just modern day Israel/Palestine. It included Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Jordan was split off and given to the Hashamites. Syria was taken over as a "Mandate" by France, along with Iraq.

By contrast in the Americas, there were established Kingdoms, tribal areas, etc. Definite areas where each nation ruled or governed. Some moved about in their area as hunter gatherers, others pretty much stayed in one place, farmed, etc.

But in the area of Israel/Palestine there was no area that was self ruled, or an independent country. It was a province in one empire or another for hundreds and hundreds of centuries.


Not to mention that there were ALWAYS Jews living in the area. We know from historical records that Jews were forced to leave by the Romans, but not all did leave. To say that the Palestinians were 'always there' is not correct. There could have been an independent Palestine in 1948. But they were convinced by their 'allies' that they could force the Jews out and rule the entire area. I mean after the War of Independence we saw Trans-Jordan annex the west bank, Egypt annex Gaza. If the Arab armies had won, there would not have been an independent Palestine, but it would have been split up among Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. Then likely they would have fought amongst themselves.

[WHITT]

5. BTW

polling indicates the younger you are in America, the more you support BDS. Fortunately, the demographics are the exact opposite as falsely portrayed by you and the opinion writer.

[Mosby]

6. So what? BDS is a failure.

And young progressives are isolationists for the most part. They don't think we should support anyone in the ME, including KSA and the other GCC countries.

The world is moving on. The window of opportunity is closing.

[WHITT]

7. HEH

you just keep telling yourself that delusion.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. That's one impressive bubble of denial you've got going there...

To be honest, I don't think you have the slightest idea of what progressives anywhere else in the world think about the situation in the Middle East. I think what yr doing is kind of similar to what Donald Trump did with his gross exaggerations and citing random anonymous waiters who he talked to....

[Mosby]

22. I think you should stop making this personal.

[Israeli]

23. coming from you

thats hysterical