Do you really think defeating Trump will be easy?

[realmirage]

I think the reason people are still obsessed with Sanders is because they think beating Trump is a given and so talking about the general election is boring. So just for those people, here's a link that might wake you up. Never underestimate the stupidity of a large section of U.S. voters.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/26/us/dukakis-lead-widens-according-to-new-poll.html

But that was different! You might say. Might I remind you of the candidates America has elected recently: Bush I and II (12 years), Nixon (even during the war in 72), Reagan (trickle down piss on you economics, 8 years)

[TwilightZone]

1. I think it's the opposite. I think the focus on Sanders is because we know beating Trump in Nov

isn't a given. The sooner Sanders is out of the picture, the sooner everyone can focus all attention on the GE, down-ticket races, etc.

Granted, we should be doing that anyway, but I think it's more about focusing on the GE and not wasting time and resources on the primaries than anything. It's also about wanting to show a united front against the GOP for the fall.

[spooky3]

3. great minds, and all that!

[realmirage]

7. But it's so obvious that Sanders is just doing political theater to negotiate over the DNC platform.

He just said yesterday that he's going to do everything in his power to defeat Trump. What he's doing now isn't really a big deal. Obsessing over what he's doing I think just makes it all worse. It causes more fighting with his supporters and makes the whole debacle seem like more of a big deal than it is.

[TwilightZone]

11. I think it's mostly just here - the real world seems to have moved on.

Honestly, I'm not sure why we don't just ignore him, but I think a lot of it has to do with what Hillary did in similar circumstances in 2008. Yeah, she groused about it for a few days, but she conceded, endorsed Obama, and started campaigning *hard* for him almost immediately.

I never really expected that from Sanders, but I did think he'd be out by now and at least half-heartedly endorse Hillary. Saying that he's going to defeat Trump is the true goal, certainly, but at the same time, the confusing messages from him and from his staff, particularly Weaver, who says he's still fighting for the nomination, cause some uncertainty.

In reality, though, it's not going to much matter anymore.

[realmirage]

14. If you consider that all Sanders

is doing is just a bit of political theater to gain leverage at the convention, then, as he has always said he would, he'll pivot to doing everything he can to help defeat Trump (as he said yesterday, again), then I think Hillary supporters should just see it for the harmless thing it is. Instead, what I see is thread after thread of people fighting with Sanders supporters over what Sanders is doing. Why fight over a nothingsandwich? I just don't see how that helps us in any way.

[TwilightZone]

19. Well, I do consider it political theater, but it doesn't help that he and Weaver don't seem to be

on the same page. That's expected toward the end of a campaign, of course, but it's not helping.

Going back to the original point, I think people are looking for some certainty going into the convention and the political theater, while probably harmless, makes people a little nervous. Should it? Probably not, but the stakes in this election are very high, so I think everyone's just looking for some solidarity on our side going into the heart of the race. Of course, for the most part, there is tremendous solidarity already...just not from Sanders.

But, you're right. Arguing about it with DU Sanders supporters - many of whom probably won't even vote in November - doesn't get us anywhere.

[realmirage]

23. Sanders has indicated solidarity by saying he will do everything to defeat Trump

That's another wink that after the convention, when he's done all he can, he'll pivot. He hasn't been attacking Hillary, and most of his political views I agree with. Weaver is a complete weasel. But Sanders himself has been much more reasonable since California, and even before that he was being much more reasonable. But all these threads attacking Sanders because of the Bernie-or-die people, I don't think it helps win over the moderate Sanders supporters when they see so many anti-Sanders threads.

I know you get it, but I think a lot of people here are still riding that emotional roller coaster from the primaries. I wish we could all just calm down a bit more.

[TwilightZone]

28. Well, yes and no.

First, we do agree on nearly all of the underlying issues. I think Sanders has a lot of the right ideas; I'm just much more of a realist than he is. He has been more reasonable since California and I think "we" are probably expecting too much too soon considering the massive emotional investment that he, his campaign, and his supporters have made in this race. We also agree that we often conflate Sanders and his supporters (especially those on DU) a little too easily. I know I do, even though I tried very, very hard not to for a big chunk of this cycle.

All that being said, saying he'll do everything he can to defeat Trump doesn't *necessarily* indicate solidarity. Jill Stein and Gary Johnson want to defeat Trump, but also at the expense of Clinton. If I wasn't so sure that Sanders wouldn't (or can't) run as an Independent, I might be a little worried about him doing so, expecting the middle and the left to help him beat both Clinton and Trump, a la Ross Perot, though Ross ultimately failed.

But...we know it's not going to happen. A lot of people aren't so sure. I think the uncertainly is fed when Weaver says stuff like "we're still fighting for the nomination". Our logical side knows he's full of shit, but that pesky pessimistic side isn't so sure.

Of course, in the end, arguing with DU Sanders supporters *still* doesn't help. lol

[realmirage]

29. Jill Stein is a non-starter

And Sanders entire record shows that he'll do the right thing. In 2000 he was ok with Nader, in 2004 he came out and endorsed Kerry, saying we have to do everything we can do defeat the GOP. Sanders isn't stupid - what he's doing now is cleverly negotiating with the DNC, and I don't see any harm in it. Once he pivots, as his record shows and as he and Jill have consistently said he will, watch how fast people remember that the GOP is the real enemy, as the PUMAs did in 08. There's plenty of time. But as you and I have said, attacking Sanders right now isn't a great strategy, as Trump has not been defeated yet. I've seen enough stupid candidates elected to know we can't take anything for granted.

[TwilightZone]

31. I agree on Stein. She just likes attention. She also got 0.35% of the vote in 2012.

And there is plenty of time. It's going to be a long campaign season, and I'm not all that worried about the next month outside of keeping the pressure on Trump and prepping for GOTV in November.

Attacking Sanders isn't a great strategy, but old habits die hard. I think the point of many is that we shouldn't even be in the position to attack him at this point, and in a lot of ways, I'd agree with that. Just because it's hard to call it a day doesn't mean that he shouldn't, but I understand it. I'd probably even be a little more understanding if he hadn't endorsed Obama before Hillary had even conceded in 2008, but the view from outside the fence and inside varies considerably as I'm sure he's discovered.

[okasha]

51. Of course it's Kabuki.

Here's the problem: Sanders is not gaining leverage at the convention. He's bleeding relevance and influence right now. It will be an arterial hemorrhage by the middle of next week. At that point all he'll get from the Party is "That was nice Bernie. Please sit down."

Come down to it, he doesn't do politics very well at all, and his staff are a pack of incompetent idiots. None of them seems much interested in reality.

[NurseJackie]

16. Yep. I have real-world friends who supported Bernie, and NONE OF THEM have

any doubts that Hillary is the nominee. And, surprise-surprise, ALL OF THEM will be voting for Hillary.

Our chit-chat and political gossiping is now trying to predict whom Hillary will choose for her Vice President. Everyone has moved on!

This web site is NOTHING AT ALL like the real world.

[BlueMTexpat]

34. That has been the case with ALL my

real-world friends who supported Bernie.

Some on DU and elsewhere on-line do not follow that model. They will be quite surprised if ever they open their eyes and see what the real world is like.

[wildeyed]

41. +1

The few who claim to have switched to Trump didn't even bother to vote in the primary I refrain from goading them about it because I don't want them to get mad and remember to vote in the GE.

[NurseJackie]

42. That's a wise decision.

[Walk away]

15. He is also broke and (unlike Hillary and Obama) there is not going to be any help pay it back.

I think he overplayed his hand. Too bad Bernie. Anything can happen but Hillary is already baking the winning cake for the Oval Office. We need Sanders supporters to help win back a chunk of Congress and be sure of winning back our majority in the Senate.

Trump is D.O.A.

[realmirage]

25. We do need Sanders supporters, that's why I think Hillary supporters

should let the anti-Sanders stuff be replaced with anti-Trump stuff. Letting the BoBs get us riled up enough to repeatedly attack Sanders I think alienates moderate Sanders supporters. And it's just not good for the blood pressure.

[Walk away]

38. I have never seen a moderate Sanders' supporter here at DU. If there are any they...

are a small percentage who don't post often. I'm not riled up, I'm enjoying Bernie's rapid diminishment. I have met him in the real world and from my personal experience, he deserves what's coming to him.

I am not advocating that he stop running. He should stay in the race. It will help prove that every lie that he has told about the Democratic party and Hillary Clinton is just that, lies.

I have plenty to post about Trump but he is out of the press this week while he fundraises. Bernie is still a candidate in this race and still trashing the Democratic party. He is still running against Hillary Clinton, unless he and his surrogates are lying to the press.

In 3 more days I will take my opinion of Bernie Sanders to sites who recognize him for what he is. Until then, while 90% of this site is trashing my candidate, I feel comfortable expressing myself.

[wildeyed]

43. There are plenty.

They lay low and tune out the noise, mostly. Why would they bother to post? They are not welcome in either candidate forum and the rest of the site is a total minefield until the 20th.

[Walk away]

44. Then I doubt that they are trolling around the Hillary Group.

[wildeyed]

46. No, they respect our group.

But they are around the rest of the site if you know where to look for them. They have nuanced reasons for their support of Sanders, but do not flame Clinton supporters and are vehemently opposed to the RW smears and personal attacks against Clinton. I even know a few IRW who also post on DU. Good people. You will hear more from them after the 20th.

[Walk away]

47. We'll see. nt

[TwilightZone]

57. I think there might be a lot of them. Like Clinton supporters, I think many of them chose the

sidelines rather than deal with the backlash from the more virulent Sanders supporters. In the past few days, I've seen a lot of them trying to peek out, though they often get shut down if they're not on message.

[spooky3]

2. I disagree.

I think it's just the opposite. People you're referring to in your 2nd sentence are VERY concerned about beating Trump. That is why they want the party to unify and fight the threat he poses. If they were not worried about Trump, everyone could ignore Sanders' bad behavior.

[realmirage]

8. I don't see any unifying, I see a lot of fighting

All Sanders is doing is trying to get more leverage in the negotiations over the DNC platform. He just said yesterday he's going to do everything he can do help stop Trump. For a short period, right now, he's doing his political theater thing to just get leverage at the convention... I just don't see how fighting with his supporters over this is helping unity at all.

[TwilightZone]

12. One can't unify with a group of people who don't want to unify.

There was a poll on DU recently of Sanders supporters. Half of them said he shouldn't drop out and should never endorse Hillary. Half.

If that's representative of even close to half of DU's Bernie supporters, nothing we or anyone can do is going to create anything resembling unity. The best we could do is ignore them.

Some of the worst aren't Sanders supporters - of that, I'm convinced. The ones who post the same nonsense every 20 minutes are just messing with us - and them.

[realmirage]

18. So fight them in GDP if you want, but why obsess in the Hillary group over a nothing issue?

Those who won't unify, they are a waste of time to worry over unless you are in GDP and want to counter-argue. Unity with those people is pointless. So why would we think, that to get back at those people, repeatedly attacking Sanders' mostly harmless attempt to negotiate over the convention is going to win over the more moderate Sanders supporters? Is that the strategy at DU? I don't see how that can be effective.

[TwilightZone]

21. Agreed.

Our focus in HCG should be on Trump and November. We really do spend an inordinate amount of time talking about BS. And BS. lol

[realmirage]

26. Is there a meme of Trump as a whitewalker?

We need one. That will unify us

[FarPoint]

37. I love the White Walker reference.

Maybe too good for Trump.

[Walk away]

39. You are suggesting that we all go to GDP and get piled on by some of the most vehement....

Hillary Haters on the internet??? Great plan! Where should I go on vacation? Syria?

[Walk away]

20. DU doesn't even slightly represent the real world.

The large percentage of Greens, Naderites, Gun Extremists and Far Left Libertarians make DU unlike anyplace else on the planet. I am surprised 50% said they would endorse Hillary!

This place doesn't even trend like a liberal college campus! Why do you think we've been hiding here for months???

[TwilightZone]

24. Agreed. And, somewhat bizarrely, Paulites.

Some of them are still around, which just boggles my mind.

Then again, there's HA Goodman, leftist king of the Paulites! lol

I'm getting better at just hanging out in here, though as I noted in another reply, I do tend to fall off the wagon a lot. lol

[wildeyed]

48. That is just the GDP group.

I don't even look at that forum much. I spend my time here or in the AA group. Far higher level of dialog. I suspect that the more moderate Sanders supporters have better things to do too.

[TwilightZone]

49. Yeah, that was my point.

The ones who run around in GDP have no interest in unifying, so there's little point in trying to even have a discussion with some of them. Many of them aren't Democrats (as they're quite happy to tell everyone), and a few of them are trolls.

[wildeyed]

50. Oh, got it.

Yeah, I don't waste my breath over there much anymore.

Oh god, the trolls.... Do a search on seventhson, that particularly notorious troll from 2004. It was VERY illuminating to see how little that game has changed over time. Also funny to see who the DUers who were his cheerleaders. A few are still around! They start with their Obama and Hillary bashing... I can't keep a straight face. I am thinking about how much they lurved the freeper troll back in the day

[TwilightZone]

52. lol, I remember ol' seventh

I also remember a couple of trolls who pretended to be a virulently anti-choice gay couple for almost the entire primary season. Must have been '04. One of the two outed himself, in a manner of speaking, about the time the primaries ended. We tried to tell everyone the whole thing was a ruse, but they snowed a lot of people.

And, yes, some of the same anti-Dems are still here. Only now, they have 100k-150k posts and are considered old-timers and DU legends (in their own minds).

[wildeyed]

53. HA Goodman

Need I say anything else? I thought I was full on tripping when I read the thread here on his Killer Mike article. Like Wow, did I take acid and not notice because this thread makes ZERO sense in the real world I hadn't been around much and that was my intro to both Mike and HA. Surreal.... People are so gullible.

Trolling seems weird to me. I can't imagine putting that much time into a project like that. The ones who are good are kind of pitiful. It takes some intelligence and bandwidth to perpetrate that kind of hoax. Seems like they could be doing more with their lives.

[TwilightZone]

54. Ack, Goodman.

All people needed to know about Haha is that he was supporting Rand Paul earlier in *THIS* election cycle. That should have been enough, but, no, he's like some kind of DU prophet. I'm still wondering if the whole thing is just some kind of performance art. He sounds like a 12-year-old in his twitter feed and one would swear it's not even the same guy.

Agreed on trolling. Never really understood it.

[wildeyed]

55. Also, HA is a pen name.

Fictional, as in not a real person. Troll or very confused "liberal democrat"? Who knows.... I have a great tinfoil hat theory about how "he" is actually an algorithm programmed by libertarians dwelling in mom's basement, but I am not getting any traction with that one. But I think that is as likely as him being a real progressive.

[FarPoint]

4. First of all...

Trump needs to officially be the GOP Candidate...so I'll hold my breath until the deal is done at the GOP Convention. If he is, it still will be a battle...never underestimate a con man....never take anything for granted with the GOP...rules mean nothing here.

[realmirage]

9. I've heard rumblings about dumping him at the convention, but I just don't see it happening

Right now is the PERFECT time to be attacking, because you have people like Paul Ryan admitting he's a racist and yet still saying he'll vote for him. What prime opportunities we are totally letting slip by us! The Sanders sideshow is not that big of a deal.

[FarPoint]

36. I agree...we have the advantage....

That is what makes me tense.. thinking the GOP will somehow,. place another as a GOP candidate and/ or Trump drops out...
We have about 4 weeks until it is a deal...Trump is very damaged goods now and the GOP is fully aware.

Maybe I'm just so distrustful of the GOP that I seem paranoid...I don't know...

[TeamPooka]

5. No i think it will be a tough fight. Celebrity is the most powerful force in America

The Terminator became a Gov.
So did Jesse Ventura.
Fame brings out the stupid in people.
GOTV is super important this year.

[eastwestdem]

6. Exactly!! nt

[realmirage]

10. Totally right

Very good points.

[Jerry442]

17. The general election will be like playing Russian Roulette...

...with a revolver with a cylinder that holds a hundred rounds. Chances are good you'll win, but if you lose, you're dead.

[ladym55]

22. Not at all

M$M gave us the vulgar talking yam by legitimizing him and his nonsense for a year. He's not going away (yet), and M$M is STILL making it appear that he is somehow qualified to be president.

The stuff we know about the Donald should disqualify him from ANY office, but since he is a Republican, none of that apparently counts. We are all SO concerned about Hillary's emails and her likeability.

[Agnosticsherbet]

27. If we are unified in the face of Trump's ineptitude

I think we will win.

If the Party is divided, it is iffy.

[WhiteTara]

30. No. There are many republicans who will vote

against Hillary rather than for Trump. Maybe BOBs as well

[C_U_L8R]

32. Easy? Not at all.

Fun? Absolutely!!!!

[Legends303]

33. Sanders would not only have to face Trump

but the entire republican attack machine. They will have a field day with him espically with his stances on taxes. So when they say republicans would vote for him in the general it's pure ficition.

[DavidDvorkin]

35. Yes, I do

It's going to be like 1964, but possibly even worse for the Republicans.

[MFM008]

40. This case is different

you didn't have other republicans in open revolt against Bush,Bush or Reagan.
Nixon is more liberal than most of today's republicans.
I think im enjoying it very much so far.
IF they try to ditch Rump he will run 3rd party
they made their Rump bed now they have to sleep in it.
I agree with the poster that says it will be like 1964.

[wildeyed]

45. Trump has a hard row to hoe, demographically.

The GE voter pool is VERY different than the Rep primary. But no one thought he would be the GE candidate, either. We have never seen a candidate like Trump in modern times and he has FAR exceeded expectations already, so I would not take anything for granted.

And I do not think Hillary Clinton or her campaign are taking this GE for granted. They have been studying him very intently and came out swinging. She nailed him on his home turf, Twitter the other day. Just BOOM, out of the gate Obama got him in the presser, too. They bought up all the media blocks in competitive markets the other day while he is floundering with his fundraising and trying to figure out how campaigning on the big stage works. If they keep him off balance for a bit longer, it will be VERY difficult for him to regain his lost ground.

Fingers crossed, but I think she is off to a great start!

[okasha]

56. Agreed that we must work hard and take nothing for granted.

But I have never seen either party in the situation the Republicans are in now.

Trump is a poison pill, and there are really only two strategies open to them.

1. Abandon him to his fate, putting as much distance between him and them as possible while supporting their down ticket candidatrs. There will be a great many Republicans voting for Hillary this fall. Some high-ranking R''s are actually endorsing her. They'll be defeated, but their party survive more or less intact.

2. Dump Trump. There's no precedent and no protocol for this if they can't get him to stand down voluntarily. If they do manage somehow to cut him loose, they'll face a mass defection of the teapartiers and libertarians. The replacement candidate would have little credibility, and it would take years to put Hunmpy-Dumpy back together again. They might not be able to do it at all.

The USSHillary has her bow to the open sea, with clear skies and s following wind. All hands to stations!

[Demsrule86]

58. No way

In the end the GOP will look at the same thing we do...the courts. and pull together ...we must be prepared.