Pennsylvania Supreme Court rules mail ballots with incorrect dates won't be counted

[BumRushDaShow]

Source: NBC News

Sept. 13, 2024, 5:59 PM EDT


The Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled Friday that mail ballots that are improperly dated won't be counted in November, a move that could have major implications in the closely divided battleground state. The decision reverses a lower court ruling from last month that found it was unconstitutional to reject mail ballots that had a missing or incorrect date.

The bureaucratic requirements of ballots in Pennsylvania have long been the subject of litigation, with opponents of the date requirements arguing that they unnecessarily disenfranchise eligible voters. A group of voting rights advocates went to court in May seeking to block the provision, which required election officials to reject ballots that were incorrectly dated, even if the ballot reached them by the statutory deadline of 8 p.m. on Election Day.

The Republican National Committee and Pennsylvania Republican Party stepped in to support of the date provision, arguing it was important to election integrity. Their appeal of the Commonwealth Court's ruling from two weeks ago was successful on Friday.

Democrats have utilized mail voting more heavily than Republicans in recent elections in Pennsylvania and elsewhere.

Read more: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/pennsylvania-supreme-court-mail-ballots-incorrect-dates-rcna170819

---

As a note - even with Democrats using these "no excuse absentee ballots" more than Republicans, they were only utilized by about 1/3rd of our voters. MOST people still go "in person" on election day to vote (and that includes Democrats).

The last mail ballot I did for this year's primary had a redesigned back of the envelope that was WAY clearer on what needed to be filled out, so hopefully that will help to a degree.

[SomedayKindaLove]

1. What dates need to match up?

The postmark date and ?

[BumRushDaShow]

4. It seems most of the issues have been with envelopes with no date added at all

as well as no signature.

I expect if a date is there and is later than the postmark, then that could be one issue, and if someone dates the envelope with an early date that ends up being before the ballots were even mailed out (and the County knows when they sent out their mail ballots), then that might also be an issue.

[InstantGratification]

22. The date that goes on the security envelope

I'm in OH, so I'm assuming a couple of things, but most states are similar in this:

When I request and get a mail in ballot, the vote by mail packet I receive has 4 things in it. The actual ballot, the security envelope, the return envelope and an instruction sheet that tells me how to fill everything out and return it.

The ballot has no signature or other identifying markings on it, just the candidates and the issues. That is how they maintain your anonymity. You fill out your ballot with your choices and it goes in the security envelope.

The security envelope has all the authentication measures. When I get mine this fall, I'll fill out the ballot and seal it in the security envelope. On the outside I put my name, address, date of birth and drivers license number (that's the one I choose, there are other options). Then I sign and date it, put it in the return envelope and either mail it back or take it to a drop box.

When the board of elections gets my return envelope, they take my security envelope out and drop it in a bin that is kept secured until election day. On election day, they verify my security envelope and take out my ballot and drop it in another bin to be scanned and tabulated. That is how they both verify my identity and maintain the anonymity of my votes.

The "date" in question is the date on the security envelope. Put the wrong date there or no date at all and, with this decision, PA won't be counting your vote. A typo on that date has zero to do with election security, it's just another way to disqualify votes. The post mark date is the one that matters, get it in the mail by the deadline and received by the board of elections by the deadline and your should be counted. Rs know that Ds are more likely to vote by mail, so they will cull more D votes than R votes and in a tight race, maybe swing the result in their favor.

[evolves]

36. Thank you for the explanation.

I've never voted by mail, so don't have a personal experience of how it works.

[InstantGratification]

38. I love voting by mail

It is the most informed voting I have ever done. When I vote in person, there are always some of the contests where I forget which person I was voting for. I'm bad with names so, while it is easy to remember Harris/Walz, it is hard for me to remember all of the more obscure county and local level candidates.

Voting by mail, I take my ballot and sit in front of my computer and google every candidate and every issue, then make my choice. Last time, I took about 2 hours on friday and another 1.5 hours on saturday for the whole process. A lot of time spent, but I was confidant that I wasn't supporting any magaloons.

[BumRushDaShow]

43. "The ballot has no signature or other identifying markings on it, just the candidates and the issues" - Nope not here

Philly's ballots do actually have a Ward and Division and a QR code on it so that it can sort and credit the votes to that Ward/Division. For Primaries, there is a party-designator on the actual ballot too.

The "inner ballot envelope" is actually designated a "secrecy" envelope, with no voter identifying markings on it. The "identifying" info is actually on the outer envelope that gets used to mail (or drop off) the ballot, and that includes the date/signature.

I had posted some examples of "new" and "old" (although the old has had variations depending on the County) - https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=3306457

Here in Philly, the ballot packet is sent to a voter in an envelope that looks like this -



The ballot actually gets put in an envelope that looks like this and that has to go into the outer mailing envelope -



If the ballot is NOT in that yellow envelope, then it is considered a "naked ballot" and will not be counted.

The new "outer envelope", is the one that gets mailed back to the election office, and was redesigned in 2024 to look like this -



In fact, I just saw this from July 2024 that for November, the city has directed the ballot vendor to print the ENTIRE YEAR in the above design - https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/pennsylvania-mail-in-ballots-philadelphia-voting-election-2024/

That means that the voter only needs to put in the "month" and the "day" in that field along with their signature!

The PA GOP has blocked any ability to do ANYTHING to the received ballots UNTIL election day. I.e, poll workers cannot start to remove anything from the outer mailing envelope ( "pre-canvassing" ) until the polls open.

[InstantGratification]

49. Sorry, my wording left room to misinterpret. The point I meant to convey is

that the ballot itself has nothing on it that ties that ballot to ME. Those paper mail in ballots are retained, so if a recount or audit were to happen, there is nothing on a given ballot that points to a particular voter. The QR code identifying the ward is new to me. I don't know if OH does that or not. That seems like a reasonable extra security measure to me, it further ties a ballot to a specific location making it even tougher for Rs to claim thousands of fake ballots were dumped in drop boxes. I don't think there was anything like that on the 2020 ballot, but I will be checking this years ballot to see.

[BumRushDaShow]

59. "The QR code identifying the ward is new to me. I don't know if OH does that or not."

We have almost 1.6 million people here in Philly and about 1,100,000 registered voters IIRC.

So data-wise, when they run those ballots through the scanners for a tally, they can get info on WHERE (down to within a mile or so based on how the Divisions (a/k/a precincts) are configured), how many (including the %) and for whom.

We have 66 Wards and 1703 Divisions (precincts). The Divisions covers a few thousand people (total population, where only some percent are actually eligible registered voters).

For example (from 2020) - https://phillyenrhistdataresults.azurewebsites.us/VoterTurnoutDetails.aspx?eid=37&cat=PREC

(the new set of Commissioners have updated how they display the election results and you can drill down to the Division level regarding how many voted for who)

[ShazzieB]

58. This confirms what I suspected.

The "date" in question is the date on the security envelope. Put the wrong date there or no date at all and, with this decision, PA won't be counting your vote. A typo on that date has zero to do with election security, it's just another way to disqualify votes.

By now, I guess I should be used to states deliberately looking for ways to disqualify ballots, but I don't think I ever will be. This reminds me so much of the old jim crow tactics, whereby certain people (i.e., black ones) were prevented from voting by requiring them to pay a "poll tax," guess the number of jelly beans in a jar, or take a written test with deliberately convoluted questions and instructions. It's an outrage that some states are still looking for ways to arbitrarily prevent certain people's votes from being counted... and yet, I know that a bunch of them are doing exactly that.

Welcome to the "United" States of America, where some states do their best to make voting easy and stress free while others do the opposite!

[Oopsie Daisy]

69. Must the handwritten date on the security envelope match the postmark date?

If someone signs and dates the security envelope on a Sunday night and mails their ballot on Monday... will it be disqualified?

If the ballot arrives in plenty of time before the deadline, but does not have a postmark will it be disqualified? (Many mailpieces that I receive arrive with no postmark!)

[Deminpenn]

25. Not a matter of matching up, some just forget to put the date after they sign

As BRDS posted, the back of the envelope has been redesigned to be much easier to read with the blocks that need to be filled in now highlighted. I believe the return envelope is now also a different color than the ballot security envelope, too.

On the old design envelopes, the form that was printed on the back had to be printed in smaller print because otherwise it wouldn't have fit in the space. It was easy to miss the blank space to put the date after you filled out the ballot.

But as a coworker, who did quality assurance on easy to fill out forms once told me, "people can be very creative when you don't want them to be".

[RobinA]

77. It's A Farce

There is no way to determine what a "correct date" is unless you date it before ballots were mailed out or after election day. I get my ballot in the mail, the next day I fill it in and date it the current date, the next day I take it to the drop box. OR I get my ballot, I sit on it for a week, I fill it out and date it the next day, then I sit on it for another week and then I take it to the drop box. As long as it isn't past election day, I'm good to go. No one has any idea what actual day I put the date on the ballot or if the date I put on the ballot is the actual date or not. The whole subject is meaningless.

[Karadeniz]

2. How is the voter liable for a date error if the ballot was received in time?

[LymphocyteLover]

34. I'm not sure why the date is so important on the ballot as long as it gets in on time.

I also don't know how they would know it is misdated, unless the date is way off, like a wrong month or year, which undoubtedly is just a simple mistake, if it's the appropriate ballot.

[progree]

3. I usually early vote in person a couple days before

Last edited Fri Sep 13, 2024, 08:46 PM - Edit history (1)

I voted by mail only once or twice, during the worst of Covid, and there were so many instructions and pratfalls, that I prefer the in-person way where I fill out an application and hand it to someone who looks it over and then hands me a ballot that I mark up and put in the machine.

Our early in-person vote starts at least a month before the election, but I prefer to wait a couple days before to vote in case something changes that would affect what I do -- a possibility with some of the more obscure down-ballot and numerous "non-partisan" ones.

MOST people still go "in person" on election day to vote (and that includes Democrats).

[BumRushDaShow]

6. We have no "early in-person voting" here in PA (i.e., using voting machines)

They keep listing PA as having "early voting", but we really don't in the "traditional" sense that other states have such. It's only the ability to complete a mail ballot at some designated election office and then drop it off there when done, on that same day - and doing that "early" (before election day versus actually mailing the ballot before election day).

[Lonestarblue]

5. I haven't trusted mail ballots in Texas for years.

The last one was do confusing the local news had special segments to tell people what they needed to do. If you require a date and signature on a ballot envelope, then there should be a clearly marked space for both instead of the blank envelopes that Republicans use to disqualify votes.

[BumRushDaShow]

9. We have only been doing this current thing since 2020

I have voted absentee for the years I was in college over 40 years ago, but now with this "no excuse" type, it's been made far more complicated with the envelope.

The latest changes on that back of the envelope have included making the font much bigger and the place to sign much bigger. The way it was designed before was confusing because it also has a signature line for people who need assistance and thus have the 3rd party sign/date lines for them. I expect people were confused as to where they were supposed to sign (I know I was).

THIS was WAY better and was used for the spring primary -



And the design change, although obviously not 100%, resulted in WAY fewer rejections after this last primary - https://www.abc27.com/pennsylvania-politics/pennsylvania-sees-fewer-mail-ballots-rejected-for-technicalities-a-priority-for-election-officials/


The previous one looked like this -

[Deminpenn]

27. The old absentee ballots in my county had the forms printed horizontally

on the back, not vertically as the one you posted.

[BumRushDaShow]

42. Different Counties have been configuring the envelopes and ballots differently

(at least within the fixed "HAVA standard" ) and depending on their ballot printing vendor. I think ours here had it horizontally as well.

[Deminpenn]

48. It should be standard

imho.

[BumRushDaShow]

50. Well

as you may have seen me post many times before - "elections ARE handled by the states" per the Constitution. There is really only narrow federal involvement.

Apparently "HAVA" (Help America Vote Act) has broad criteria and left the rest up to the states.

[Deminpenn]

62. Meant should be standard within the Commonwealth of PA

nt

[BumRushDaShow]

63. I don't think that will ever happen either

unless we can take control of the state legislature and then codify something like that.

The state-county dynamic mirrors the federal-state one!

(everyone does their own thing)

[slightlv]

14. I'm the same way as you, and I'm in Kansas.

They've never given me any reason NOT to trust them; in fact, the election official (head of office) who helped me do mine when things got confusing was very good to me and made sure my vote counted. And she was a Repub. But she acted very non-partisan; her job was to help people vote, and she took her job seriously. After Brownback, Moran, Kline, and the rest of that Brownback "Crew" I'm just too cynical. We've got too many R's, and they're either the magas or the christianists or maga/christianist. I just don't trust them. Hubby would have to go to the polls to vote, so we just go together and make it an "outing." Also, when our polling place was across the street and up the block (before we got gerrymandered again), it was nice to meet the neighbors and have a chat before casting votes. It was a "neighborhood thing"... really nice. Then they gerrymandered us halfway across town. I have no problem striking up a conversation with anyone, but these days I just kinda keep to myself and the hubby. You never know when something you say will trigger a reactionary maga.

[Bengus81]

37. Have you recived your mail in ballot yet? I'm in Kansas--Sedgwick Co

I mailed in the application months ago. I knew there wouldn't be a mail in ballot sent until after the DNC convention but I've yet to receive my ballot and my wife's.

[slightlv]

61. After the hassle last time,

I decided not to do a mail-in ballot... but to go to the polls in person. I'm retired, so it's just whenever during the day... I don't have to try to take off work or anything.

I did go online to download a sample ballot, so I could start doing my research on the other positions, as well as any initiatives. They don't even have a sample ballot up yet!!! All it says is "Coming Soon." So I'm not surprised you've not received your ballot yet. Add on top of that Dejoy's mail service, and I'd be calling everyday to stoke the office to get it out the door. Don't trust the mail! Dejoy should be soon leaving that position, when Harris is Prez. We can start depending on the mail again at that point.

Meanwhile, I'm checking about every other day for a sample ballot to download.... BTW... Hi, Neighbor! I'm in Leavenworth County. Headed to Topeka on Oct 3 to see the Kansas 50th Anniversary Tour there. Grandson got me a VIP pass so I could meet the band and grab the swag. I'm so excited!!!

[HagathaCrispy]

7. DO NOT trust mail in anywhere

For God sakes go in person if possible!!!

[Linpark90]

21. In person with ID

So simple. And it works.

[MissKat]

8. The issue with dates on mail in ballots

The big problem with the correct date on mail in ballots is that people sometimes see DATE and they put their birthday.

People still haven't gotten all the instructions down.

It used to be if a simple mistake was made on the return envelope the voter would get a call or an email and they had a chance to go in and fix or cure their envelope.

The envelope has nothing to do with the vote. I don't know why the SC did this.

[BumRushDaShow]

10. There are Counties here that offer the ability to "cure" including here in Philly

The problem is apparently that the state law that implemented this, didn't really specify that option, so it's hit or miss if a County will do it or not.

There have been attempts by Democrats here to update the law for that (and for other things like being able to pre-canvas the ballots before election day so that they only need to take the stacks of ballots and feed them through the readers), but the GOP has blocked ANY and EVERY ability to make voting easier.

As it is, it was a complete shock that the GOP even allowed this mail voting but it was ONLY done in exchange for getting rid of "straight-party ticket" voting (and they figured it would be a good sweetener to offer mail voting to push our (D) governor to accept getting rid of the straight party voting option as a compromise, and thus sign the bill).

But since the pandemic hit right when the law went into effect and a mail voting option was just what we needed for that situation, the GOP has been trying to repeal the law that THEY passed almost unanimously (except for 1 GOP vote & 1 (D) voted against it), ever since!

[FakeNoose]

19. Yes and the ballot "curing" is also done in Allegheny County

If the ballot is received early by the Election Board, and they see that it's missing the signature or the correct date, they will try to contact the voter in question. If they are successful the voter is asked to come downtown to the Election Board office and "cure" the error. The "cured" ballot can then be counted with all the others.

It's not illegal for the County Election Boards to do this, it's just that so few are even making the effort.

[progree]

13. "people sometimes see DATE and they put their birthday" - wow, that's the ultimate in early voting

[slightlv]

15. How many R's vs D's do you have on your state's court?

Ours are suppose to be nonpartisan, of course. But before voting, I always do as much research as I can to find out. The R's around me don't broadcast their party (even for other positions). And I just don't trust an R that doesn't SAY he's an R, and I certainly don't trust them when they DO say they're R. Brownback managed to stack the court for us. We're going to be a long time, between the legislature and the courts, getting Kansas back to the way it was prior to his coup.

[John1956PA]

26. The PA Supreme Court has a 5-2 majority of Dems.

The Chief Justice of the PA Supreme Court is a progressive from the town where I reside.

[Deminpenn]

28. PA Supreme Court is 5D, 2R

The court overturned the commonwealth court ruling because it applied to all 67 counties when all 67 counties weren't party to the lawsuit.

[RobinA]

78. OFFS! nt

*

[Deminpenn]

80. Ruling was technical

That the case didn't have standing

[everyonematters]

11. If the ballot is deemed invalid, will they be notified in time to then vote in person?

When are they looked at?

[BumRushDaShow]

12. It seems to vary from County to County

Here in Philly, they do put out a "public" notice to people (with a list of names and zips) to come in to a specified location to fix their ballot. I think they check them as soon as they reach the election office because the only thing the election folks are allowed to do with them is look at the back to check for signature/date (they can't open them until election day). The envelopes have the name/address and a barcode identifying the person and their Ward/Division.

[slightlv]

16. If it's known that's all the election office is allowed to check (of course)

then it would be the most logical thing to assume the date meant birthdate. That's the way things are checked here... name, address, and birthdate.

[Martin68]

17. If we lose based on ballots with incorrect dates, we deserve to lose. C'mon people, it's not so hard to fill in the

correct date, and we won't lose an election because a few people wrote in the incorrect date. I suspect there might be more important issues to focus on...

[Silent Type]

51. +1. I'd bet money GOPers are more apt to screw up ballots than Democrats.

[RobinA]

79. What Is

"the correct date?" I mail vote in PA and I have no idea what they consider the correct date to be. The day I fill it out? The day I put it in the drop box? The day I receive the ballot? The day I give it to my sister to take it to the County election board? And they don't know what the correct date is either. There's no way of telling when I filled it out, or when I stuck it in the drop box. Or when I put it in the mailbox.

[Martin68]

82. As with any notarized document or contract, the date is the actual date you sign a document.

[DallasNE]

18. Hard To Understand This Ruling

The standard procedure would be to make these ballots provisional and give the voters a week to cure the problem. The "clear intent" rules should cover some of this as well. Imagine, throwing out a ballot because the instructions say to use MM/DD/YYYY and they use MM/DD/YY or YYYY/MM/DD, especially when the date written is meaningless anyway. These gotcha rules need to be terminated.

[FakeNoose]

20. Until now, the quarantined ballots have been relegated to provisional status

This new ruling has done away with the provisional status and I'm very upset by that.

The PA Supreme Court just disenfranchised a lot of voters - unnecessarily.

[ArmedLiberal24]

24. Looks like 2000 all over again !TRE45ON.

[bucolic_frolic]

31. We shoud sue again for provisional status

That is a separate issue from date

[ArmedLiberal24]

23. I remember other Republicon tricks in Florida 2000 with butterfly ballots. Another design for republicon filth to cheat.

TRE45ON.

[Deminpenn]

32. No, that's the wrong take

Prior to 2020, in Pennsylvaina, you could only vote by absentee ballot if you verified that you were not able to be at your polling place on election day. Mostly absentee ballots were used by college students and disabled voters who couldn't physically get to the poll and maybe people who were away on business/vacation.

In 2020, the state legislature passed a law allowing no excuse absentee ballot voting in return for removing the straight party vote option on state ballots. That came just in time for covid and many people took advantage of it and have continued to vote that way.

The back of the ballot envelope was always poorly designed, but until the explosion of absentee ballots brought on by covid, it wasn't a big deal. Now the state has done its best to make it easy for voters to see what blocks need to be filled out, but there will always be voters who just don't do it correctly.

[Deminpenn]

29. PA Supreme Court cited a lack of standing in overturning the Commonwealth Court

ruling.

So this was a procedural mistake. The Supreme Court has previously ruled that undated ballots should be counted, iirc.

I think if a lawsuit is filed quickly addressing the standing issue and Commonwealth Court moves the case quickly, our Supreme Court would rule that undated ballots postmarked and received on or before election will be counted.

[FakeNoose]

41. I hope you're right

Is this case being pursued by Democracy Docket? I hope so and I hope they follow up.

It's puzzling to me that the PA Supreme Court made this ruling. We all thought the issue was settled last month and the undated or misdated envelopes would not prevent the ballots from being counted.

There has to be an argument here, the Supreme Court can't just step in and disenfranchise all those voters.

Don't forget that this affects ballots from Repuke voters too. This 2024 election will probably be the first one where Rs are voting by mail in bigger numbers. Aren't the Rs more likely to make errors than Ds?

[bucolic_frolic]

30. There went contract law - all you need is a postmark - Photo your enveiope!!!!!!

I was tipped off by a USPS employee to ask for today's postmark at the counter, then take the envelope and photo it

Some government entities requesting proof of mailing and there it is

[wolfie001]

33. Updated republican racist/hate driven poll tax

Same reason Voting Day is on a Tuesday workday. Inconvenience the vast majority of voters and pick off some of our struggling people that shouldn't have to deal with all of these nuances and potential land-mines that would invalidate someone's right to vote. I blame the Roberts family. He's a spineless weasel and his wife teaches lawyers on how to write their SC petitions to help the repuke party. Sickening. Both are pieces of shit.

[Dock_Yard]

55. I agree on John Roberts being a spineless weasel, in general

Probably the poorest performing "chief justice" of my lifetime.
Nothing but a very weak, manipulatable, partisan HACK.

Everybody seems to have warmed up to Bush 43's 2 lousy terms in office, mostly because The Sick Fuck 45's 1 term was downright criminal and unconstitutional. But Bush begat Roberts twice ... first as a new nominee, then later as Chief Justice.

I keep this in mind whenever kind-hearted souls want to look at Bush 43's presidency though rose colored glasses.

[MichMan]

35. Already posted

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19458325

[HagathaCrispy]

39. CAN'T WE PLEASE ALL GO AND VOTE IN PERSON SO THEY CANT STEAL IT????

Those who can get there in person need to go in person, early. We have a 5 to 2 advantage on the PA Supreme Court and that is NOT what they said, they sent it back to the lower court by the way.

[Dock_Yard]

56. THIS WOULD BE BEST -- LEAVE NO DOUBTS ON OUR VOTES ACTUALLY COUNTING

[Oopsie Daisy]

40. Not every piece of successfully delivered mail gets a postmark. I receive MANY cards and letters *

* throughout the year where the stamp has not been cancelled, and there's NO postmark date.

[PennRalphie]

44. PA mail in ballots must be requested

This is a change from 2020 when they were just sent out. If you know someone who voted by mail in the past, make sure they receive a ballot.


https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/OnlineAbsenteeApplication/#/OnlineMailInBegin

This is very important. Ballots are not being sent out automatically unless you’re active duty military or live overseas.

[BumRushDaShow]

60. They have required that people "request" or "renew" each year since 2020

And what it would do is allow someone to either "opt-in" for the mail ballot for "all" elections (primary, general, special) for a particular year or just for that one time for an upcoming election.

[PennRalphie]

64. I'm not sure everyone knows this

So many people don’t vote during the midterms or special elections, so no ballots were requested. It’s important to get Democratic turnout in huge numbers. If voters are waiting for ballots to arrive as they did in 2020, they could miss out on voting by mail and must rely on in person voting. For so many, in person voting is incredibly inconvenient and could affect the numbers. I think it’s just a good idea to stress to PA voters to have a plan to vote in person OR request that ballot early.

[BumRushDaShow]

65. At least here in Philly, they (the City Commissioners who run the elections) have been talking it up

And because we tend to have many polling places here in the city (most are within 1 mile of the residences in each Division), MOST people here go "in person". I.e., since 2020, we have consistently only had about 1/3rd of the voters using the mail option.

If anything, the concern might be to make sure that the machines (that were first used in 2019 and which I hated, which is why I vote by mail) remain operational.

When Biden ran in 2020, the city actually surpassed the historic 2008 vote totals here, and THAT was during a pandemic when we only had about 1/2 the polling locations available due to the lack of facilities and staff, and social distancing requirements (only having about 1/2 of the polling locations meant more people used that mail option) -

2020 (as a note for the below, the guy pictured on the far left of the first screen cap is now PA's Secretary of the Commonwealth - Al Schmidt. )




2008

[PennRalphie]

66. I realize Philly rules PA

Here in the West, there’s virtually zero talk about the ballot issue. The suburbs and surrounding areas, where I live, are mostly vote in person. The city of Pittsburgh and other areas with a large number of lower income people who vote consistently Democratic, I’m afraid don’t know about needing to request a ballot. That’s the difference between now and 2020. In 2020, ballots were automatically mailed to anyone who wanted one, regardless of reason. That’s not the case this year.

Hopefully, the huge turnout in your part of the state will offset what *could* happen here in the West from people not knowing they need to request a ballot by 10/29. The huge population of Philly voting Democratic should be enough to carry PA for Kamala.

[BumRushDaShow]

67. To respond

I realize Philly rules PA

Here in the West, there’s virtually zero talk about the ballot issue. The suburbs and surrounding areas, where I live, are mostly vote in person. The city of Pittsburgh and other areas with a large number of lower income people who vote consistently Democratic, I’m afraid don’t know about needing to request a ballot. That’s the difference between now and 2020.

In 2020, ballots were automatically mailed to anyone who wanted one, regardless of reason. That’s not the case this year.

That's not correct. The law has not changed between Oct. 31, 2019 when then-Gov. Tom Wolf signed it, and now.

If someone wanted to vote "absentee" - whether it was because they were "out of town" or had some other circumstance (e.g., medical) where they couldn't come "in person" to vote, OR, if they wanted to avail of the new "no-excuse absentee ballot", they had to request to receive an "absentee ballot" AND DESIGNATE which type of "absentee" category ( "excuse" or "no-excuse" ) that they were applying for.

There was nothing "automatic". You had to affirmatively select the option.

When the initial ballot request is made, it also includes the OPTION, to either do this ONE TIME -or- to continue to receive a mail ballot for any remaining elections for that single year. Then you had to "start over" to mail vote the next year.

If you didn't select the option to continue mail ballots for that year, then you got nothing "automatically" mailed to you for any later elections after the initial application (including any special elections).

Hopefully, the huge turnout in your part of the state will offset what *could* happen here in the West from people not knowing they need to request a ballot by 10/29. The huge population of Philly voting Democratic should be enough to carry PA for Kamala.

Somehow, magically, Josh Shapiro and John Fetterman got elected Governor and U.S. Senator respectively, in 2022. People weren't clueless on the western side of the state, mainly because Fetterman lived there. He beat Oz by over 260,000 votes.

And they certainly didn't elect the 45-annointed insurrectionist loon Doug Mastriano to be the Governor. Shapiro beat Mastriano by over 3/4 million votes (~768,000).

So there was a good-sized turnout, state-wide.

2022




The difference for Shapiro for example, between his 2020 run for AG and 2022 run for Governor, was about 500,000 votes lower during the "off year" turnout. But incredibly, the 2016, 2018, 2020 & 2022 elections each had almost 1 million MORE voters than the 2014 "off year" election (when Tom Wolf first ran for election against teabagger Corbett).

[PennRalphie]

68. You have great in depth knowledge.

You know PA voting habits well. Here in Western PA, outside of the city of Pittsburgh, we are very mixed politically. Shapiro was and is a great candidate and Governor. Fetterman is from here. Oz and that other kook never stood a chance.

My point is simply the ballots must be requested by 10/29. That’s all. There could be ads run with that message. But, perhaps everyone has already requested that ballot, or did so earlier and will receive one automatically. There’s just no talk about it here. I’m sure the Democratic Party leadership already know how many ballots were requested.

The Philly area will have enough of a lead for all Democrats that the absence of requesting a ballot in the west, if that’s the case, won’t matter.

I have been constant in my thoughts about this election. Kamala wins and may win big. Double digits big. Her support of fracking helps in this part of the state.

I’m sure it’s the same in the Philly area-the economy is absolutely booming. Housing starts everywhere. People have extra money for travel and other discretionary purchases. The amount of people traveling is mind boggling. Airfares, hotels, restaurants, car rentals are not cheap. But people have the money to spend. This is a fantastic thing for Kamala to point out. Anyone who wants a job has one. If they don’t like that job, it’s easy to get another job. Lots of upward mobility here.

I’m sure this will be a huge year for Democratic wins. I just don’t want anyone to take their foot off the gas pedal.

[BumRushDaShow]

71. As a reply

You have great in depth knowledge.

You know PA voting habits well. Here in Western PA, outside of the city of Pittsburgh, we are very mixed politically. Shapiro was and is a great candidate and Governor. Fetterman is from here. Oz and that other kook never stood a chance.

I have been out there a bunch of times as I had work trips and coworkers there. I even had a supervisor who was born and raised there. Whenever I went out there, I would tell my coworkers how pretty and scenic it was (with the ridges) and they would pause and then say, "Yeah I guess it is".

My point is simply the ballots must be requested by 10/29. That’s all. There could be ads run with that message. But, perhaps everyone has already requested that ballot, or did so earlier and will receive one automatically. There’s just no talk about it here. I’m sure the Democratic Party leadership already know how many ballots were requested.

The Harris campaign has now pretty much designated PA as a "must win" and has decided to put MASSIVE amounts of resources into our state. I.e., PA will have the majority of it designated here when compared to the rest of the swing states.

It's 19 Electoral votes.

That means opening campaign offices and getting volunteers to do door-knocking and all of that is just getting set up now. Remember that she didn't become the "lead candidate" until 7 weeks ago. That meant a change in strategy and infrastructure, literally on-the-fly.

I just saw this from a couple weeks ago - Harris campaign opens 50th Pa. office, aims to cut Trump’s advantage in rural counties

And saw this - https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/kamala-harris-makes-her-case-beyond-big-cities

Kamala Harris Makes Her Case Beyond Big Cities

At campaign stops in southeastern Georgia and New Hampshire, the Democratic candidate tried to win voters in counties outside her party’s strongholds.
By Emily Witt
September 8, 2024

(snip)

Electoral projections show that the swing states of Georgia and Pennsylvania are crucial to winning the election. Harris’s campaign has therefore been explicit that visits to places such as south Georgia and Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, are attempts to turn out voters outside the Party’s strongholds in cities and suburbs. “In the battlegrounds, we are working to persuade moderate and Republican voters, and cut Trump’s margins in rural areas and red counties,” a recent e-mail from Jen O’Malley Dillon, Harris’s campaign co-chair, said.

(snip)

After years of neglecting the rural vote, the Democratic Party wants to win some of it back. On Friday, Politico reported that the Harris campaign had hired Matt Hildreth, a progressive organizer, as a “rural engagement director,” a sign that the campaign is trying to articulate a vision for rural America beyond stale promises of broadband Internet. They are also trying to stem the perception of a rift. “We don’t have to pit urban and rural against each other,” Cedric Richmond, a co-chair of the Harris campaign, said, on MSNBC, after the Savannah rally. But what the Party promises in rural areas—improved access to health care, higher education, and investment—might not be specific enough to convince voters. Will showing up to say hello and eat chocolate caramel cake make up for it? In New Hampshire, a state where I saw the opening words of the Constitution emblazoned on the fender of a pickup truck, Harris fell back on old-fashioned patriotic appeal. “When it comes down to it, we are all here together because we love our country,” she said. “We love our country, and we know the privilege—the privilege and pride that comes with being an American.”

(snip)

I know everyone wants it to have been up and running and completed "yesterday" but it's coming. Fetterman has been to all 67 counties - TWICE - so he knows where they stand and where they need to go. Remember they went on a bus tour in western PA ahead of the DNC

The Philly area will have enough of a lead for all Democrats that the absence of requesting a ballot in the west, if that’s the case, won’t matter.

Don't forget that Walz is the VP running mate and he has already been out there a few times including Erie, which was one of the reliably "blue" counties (thanks to the city outnumbering the red rural vote up there) that flipped red in 2016, but went back to blue in 2020.

I have been constant in my thoughts about this election. Kamala wins and may win big. Double digits big. Her support of fracking helps in this part of the state.

She was in Johnstown on Friday but she also went to reddish/purplish NE PA too that day - to the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area, where the (D) support has always been "soft" outside of the urban areas. Of course Scranton is Biden territory and was where he campaigned quite a bit in 2020 and will most likely do so again this year. It's also "coal country" up there.

You can see what happened when you compare 2012 to 2016 and 2016 to 2020 -


2012 to 2016



2016 to 2020



And since then, there are "exburban" and rural counties like Chester and Lancaster (of all places) that are slowly shifting (and have done it even more so since the below analysis of the trends) -



What is notable too is Centre County (Penn State land) that has been shifting since 2012.

And just look at the fact that in 2022, Democrats FLIPPED 12 state House seats giving us enough to re-take the state House after a dozen years of being out of power. THAT is big. And some of those seats were in what have now moved from red to pinkish areas. E.g., Lancaster County just got a 2nd (D) seat (thanks to some extra spillover from Lancaster city based on how the lines were drawn).

I’m sure it’s the same in the Philly area-the economy is absolutely booming. Housing starts everywhere. People have extra money for travel and other discretionary purchases. The amount of people traveling is mind boggling. Airfares, hotels, restaurants, car rentals are not cheap. But people have the money to spend. This is a fantastic thing for Kamala to point out. Anyone who wants a job has one. If they don’t like that job, it’s easy to get another job. Lots of upward mobility here.

I’m sure this will be a huge year for Democratic wins. I just don’t want anyone to take their foot off the gas pedal.

I doubt anyone is taking their foot off the pedal (except maybe the GOP).

I am hoping this "dog and cat-eating Haitian" nonsense will be enough to sway some more Indies here in the state.

[PennRalphie]

72. There are very few indies here

There are a ton of former trump voters who are looking for a reason to vote for the Democrats. Kamala did a good job with her support of fracking.

She visited the city of Pittsburgh. Reliably Democratic. The surrounding areas where I live are purple st best. The former trump voters already aren’t voting for him. They look for an affirmative reason to vote FOR Kamala. So far, her ads running here are about how bad he is. The former trump voters know that.

The Johnstown visit fell flat, in my opinion. It was too scripted.

I want her to win by double digits. I think it’s possible. To do that, she will not only need all the votes from your part of the state, but from my part as well.

As far as your coworker claiming they “guess” it’s nice around here with the ridges and such, I never intentionally diss anyone’s home area, even subliminally. I’m sure some of my Eastern PA colleagues would “guess” the Eastern part of PA was nice, too.

But you do have a wonderful Sunday in Eastern PA. I’ll be watching the Steelers.

[BumRushDaShow]

76. And again

There are very few indies here

Here is a link to the PA "voter registration statistics" page - https://www.pa.gov/en/agencies/dos/resources/voting-and-elections-resources/voting-and-election-statistics.html

There are Excel spreadsheets there that track the registrations weekly and for the past bunch of years, I have been checking there periodically and saving the files (and looking through the data).

Here is a snapshot of the spreadsheet with the voter registration stats in the western PA counties (I grabbed about 3 counties "deep" along the western border) -



The "No Aff" (no affiliation) are the "Indies" and the "Other" are some of the smaller parties like the Libertarians, Constitution Party, Green Party, Working Families Party, etc.

Some interesting things going on over there with at least "admitted" party registrations being much closer than expected in a bunch of counties.

There are a ton of former trump voters who are looking for a reason to vote for the Democrats. Kamala did a good job with her support of fracking.

Right now, the U.S. is #1 in the world for oil production at a record 13.4 million bbls/day. A lot of it (unfortunately) is thanks to fracking, but it represents a GOP "talking point" that has been removed ( "drill baby drill" ).

This is why they are now doubling, tripling, and per a breaking banner from CNN that I just saw about 30 minutes ago, they are now quadrupling down on the "cat and dog-eating Haitians" nonsense.

She visited the city of Pittsburgh. Reliably Democratic. The surrounding areas where I live are purple st best. The former trump voters already aren’t voting for him. They look for an affirmative reason to vote FOR Kamala. So far, her ads running here are about how bad he is. The former trump voters know that.

She also visited Rochester Borough and Aliquippa in Beaver County, which are obviously not quite "Pittsburgh".

The Johnstown visit fell flat, in my opinion. It was too scripted.

?????

I want her to win by double digits. I think it’s possible. To do that, she will not only need all the votes from your part of the state, but from my part as well.

Fetterman will be on it.

As far as your coworker claiming they “guess” it’s nice around here with the ridges and such, I never intentionally diss anyone’s home area, even subliminally. I’m sure some of my Eastern PA colleagues would “guess” the Eastern part of PA was nice, too.

I think you completely misinterpret my mentioning this.

Let me clarify for you - it means that, like most others might feel about where they live, they take where they live "for granted". They see, work, and live in it every day and sometimes don't get chance to "stop and smell the flowers" and appreciate the beauty.

But you do have a wonderful Sunday in Eastern PA. I’ll be watching the Steelers.

[AdamGG]

45. What's the make up of the PA Supreme Court?

Their governor & state legislature are no Democratic, but for a long time the legislature was Republican. This sounds like a Republican court looking to exclude ballots. It shouldn't be constitutional to exclude voters over this technicality when a) the government and not them may have excluded the date and b) there is no evidence of anyone using undated ballots as a means of fraud.

[Wiz Imp]

53. 5 Democrats 2 Republicans

And to clarify, The Democrats now control the state House (by a single vote) but Repubs still control the Senate. The Democrats have a decent chance to take the Senate this cycle, though.

[SidneyR]

46. Some "democracy" you have here.

Always looking for some way to suppress votes is not a very impressive democracy. It actually rather resembles something like a pseudo-democracy, the appearance with little of the substance. Not a great model for the rest of the world.

[RobinA]

81. The Date Thing

would not be a good way of suppressing votes because you would have no idea who you are suppressing. The date is on the outside of the envelope. From what I've read, mail voting in PA is no longer reliably blue.

[LiberalArkie]

47. I sense a "hanging Chad" decision as a clerk if a "11" is really a "10" or "Nov" is really "Nav"

[CrispyQ]

52. COLORADO VOTERS: in Colorado it's not enough to have your ballot postmarked by Election Day.

Per Colorado SOS:

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/elections/FAQs/ElectionDay.html

Q10. If I am voting by mail, when must the county clerk and recorder receive my ballot?

A10. Mail ballots must be received by the county clerk and recorder no later than 7:00 PM on Election Day. Voters are encouraged to drop off ballots at designated drop off sites, drop-boxes, or mail their ballots in time to be received by the county clerk before the polls close. Postmarks do not count; ballots must be in the hands of the county clerk by 7:00 PM on Election Day in order to be counted.

For other states, check with your Secretary of State for your own state's rules.

[Dock_Yard]

54. PEOPLE: JUST VOTE AT A POLLING PLACE THIS ONE TIME

Do not risk using the Postal Service.
Asshole DeJoy is still mucking up its services 4 years ongoing.
Grrrr....

And avoid drop-off ballot boxes this time, too.

VOTE in-person only ... EARLY if your state allows it. Make sure your vote is counted.

Let's re-evaluate mail-in and drop-off balloting in 3-4 years ...
For now, inconvenience yourselves and hit the polling place.

[Frank D. Lincoln]

57. Agreed. Even when we're at the brink of losing our democracy,

many people don't want to inconvenience themselves and vote in person to make sure their vote counts. I'm referring to people who are able to vote in person and can do it if they want to, but still choose to vote by mail despite the stakes for this election.

In the past, I, myself, have routinely voted by mail, but NO WAY am I going to vote by mail in this election. This election is vastly too important not to vote in person. Even if you live in a state that lets you track your mail in ballot, it still might arrive without a postmark. Or, Republicans might challenge your signature or otherwise find a way to get your ballot thrown out.

We need massive voter turn out and we need every vote to count. Voting in person sidesteps many ways that Republicans cheat.

[BumRushDaShow]

73. NO - PA has no "early voting"

and we are NOT GOING BACK.

The "no-excuse absentee ballot" here in PA has been a GODSEND for people who are in the hospital or nursing homes/long-term care facilities, the disabled and those who are otherwise physically unable to travel to a poll... PLUS it was really designed for people who live in RURAL AREAS, where the nearest "polling place" might be dozens of miles away.

Many polling places wouldn't be able to handle excessive numbers of people showing up "in person" and if someone is forced to take off from work and have to stand in line for HOURS to get in to vote, then they may end up LEAVING and not voting at all.

DON'T CAPITULATE TO THE RIGHT-WING BULLSHIT NONSENSE

[Dock_Yard]

85. Oh come ON ...

You are bringing up Special Cases. Obviously I was speaking for the vastly larger Physically Able majority.

OF COURSE those who CAN'T make it to the polls SHOULD use mail-in.

But the vast majority of folks who are NOT Special Cases SHOULD GO TO THE POLLS. On The Day.

In future, LESS CONSEQUENTIAL, elections ... and after DeJoy is canned ... sure, everyone can mail-in.

[BumRushDaShow]

86. Most people DO go "in person"

There is some kind of "narrative" being put out there that "no Democrats vote in person and only vote by mail". It's bullshit.

Only about 1/3rd of people here in PA (total of all parties and unaffiliated) are utilizing the option for "no excuse" or "with-excuse" absentee voting (which can be done by completing the ballot and mailing it or dropping it off at designated locations that are staffed).

[et tu]

70. i vote by mail

particularly since the last time i voted in person,
an individual with a hand gun on his hip was standing
at the entrance to the room where you entered to vote.
nothing negative happened but i thought it not appropriate.
also i am notified by email that my vote has been received-
not counted but received so do sign and date correctly~

[BumRushDaShow]

74. THIS 👆👆👆

And I get the email like this -

Dear BUMRUSHDASHOW -

Your ballot has been received by PHILADELPHIA County as of April 08, 2024. If your county election office identifies an issue with your ballot envelopes that prevents the ballot from being counted, you may receive another notification. Otherwise, you will not receive any further updates on the status of your ballot from this email address and you are no longer permitted to vote at your polling place location.

Please note, if PHILADELPHIA County observes an issue with your ballot envelopes, you may receive another email from this account with additional information. To get more information on your ballot’s status, you can look it up at https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/Pages/BallotTracking.aspx.

If you have questions about your ballot, please contact PHILADELPHIA County at (215) 686-VOTE.

Para leer esta información en español, vaya a https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/Pages/BallotTracking.aspx .
要閱讀此資訊的中文版，請造訪 https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/Pages/BallotTracking.aspx。

Thank you.

****Please do not reply to this email.****

[et tu]

75. ...

[RobinA]

83. When I Went

to vote in person in 2016, my quiet country polling place was crawling with loud mouths in "Lock her up" t-shirts. I vote by mail and put it in a drop box now.

[et tu]

84. good for you

i take mine to the post office in town and
anxiously await my email confirmation.