Very troubling phone call from daughter

[AverageOldGuy]

She is a DC attorney with a big white-shoe law firm. She is a life-long, active, committed Democrat who has worked as a legal observer at elections, riots, demonstrations and the like.

Renee Nicole Good was a volunteer legal observer.


Now that ICE has been declared by Trump, Miller, and Noem to be a law unto itself, she is (1) worried about when she will be shot while working as a legal observer; (2) in tears about the future of this country; and (3) losing sleep over the world her two nieces (her brother's daughters) will inherit.

She has determined what is needed to become a long-term, legal resident of England, Ireland, or Scotland along with Canada, Switzerland (her great-grandparents), and Germany (where she was born). She also has a lead on a couple of jobs in Great Britain as well as leads on homes for sale there.

I told her that what little bit of an estate my wife and I have will be split between her and her brother with some going to the granddaughters and she can have her share anytime she wants to leave. In fact, I will buy from her her Capitol Hill residence so she pockets that profit.

Ms. Average Old Guy and I have renewed our passports and been in contact with the Swiss embassy(my grandparents).

My community in Northern Virginia has a BIG minority population -- Hispanic, Muslim, and Asian. We have seen almost no ICE activity, an occasional arrest is all. However, we (whom I will not define) have been meeting quietly -- what can we legally do in the face of ICE or NG; how to do it; establishing contact with local community leaders and faith leaders. If they show up here WE WILL NOT COMPLY.

[Irish_Dem]

1. I just had the same conversation last night with a friend.

Looking at my options to move if need be, and take adult children with me.

And wondering what the hell kind of life will Americans have going forward.

[popsdenver]

9. I read where the IRS

has been tracking the numbers of Uber Wealth top 1%ers becoming ex-pats for the past five years. They reported some pretty substantial numbers of them, and the numbers of them increasing these past few years......

I would imagine that all their money is offshored already, so they won't be hit with Double Taxation by both nations......

[Irish_Dem]

12. The rich have it all figured out by now.

They know climate change is real.

They can see how unstable the US is under GOP control.

[rampartd]

32. of course climate change is real

that is the interest in greenland.

these data centers and crypto mines seem designed to melt the ice cap.

[Irish_Dem]

33. Melting the ice will reveal priceless resources the billionaires want.

[rampartd]

34. if they wanted to save money they would put the data centers on the moon

most of the electricity is used for cooling.

[Irish_Dem]

36. Consumers and taxpayers are paying most of their costs.

The billionaires don't care about saving money.

They socialize their costs and privatize the profits.

[rampartd]

37. ain't america great?

[DFW]

50. They probably will be hit with double taxation.

Last edited Fri Jan 9, 2026, 05:00 AM - Edit history (1)

When you move abroad as a US citizen, you must submit all your holdings to both countries, and will in all likelihood be double taxed. I speak from personal experience. There is a Double Taxation Treaty between Germany and the USA. The Germans don’t care. When I moved to Germany, my accountant in the USA made me sign a waiver, because the Germans were demanding information whose disclosure would have cost him his license in the USA. Between both countries, I am being asked to pay 73% of my income in taxes.

ALL countries in the world recognize Residence Based Taxation—except two: Eritrea and the United States. When he called asking for money, I told Sherrod Brown that due to double taxation that every $1000 I could give him cost me $4000 in salary. I asked him if he even knew how many Americans abroad there were. He estimated 250,000 to 300,000. No wonder these Congresscritters don’t give a crap about us. There are about NINE MILLION Americans abroad. Probably 50,000 to 100,000 from Ohio alone.

Americans abroad are largely educated and working. Therefore likely a big Democratic majority. Our politicians are ignoring potential contributions in the hundreds of millions that now go to governments instead. Fine, but don’t come to me asking for money when I’m taxed at 73% and you’re not. So beware of myths. Money parked abroad is only “safe” if no one knows about it, and these days, everyone knows everything. And don’t waste your time wondering if there isn’t some American billionaire living tax-free on a yacht moored in the harbor of Monte Carlo. Even if there is such a creature, there are nine million of us who are not.

All my savings are still back in the states. Any country worth living in shares all financial info with the USA and vice-versa. I therefore see no reason to move everything to Germany, or even Luxembourg or Switzerland. It all gets reported to the IRS no matter where it is. Involuntary “Enteignung” in Germany theoretically ended with the end of National Socialism in the West in 1945 and with the end of Socialist Unity in 1989 in the East. But the machinery and the mentality that ran the mechanics of it during the Third Reich still persists. Don’t count on any Double Taxation Treaty to save you. It won’t, and the top tax rate in Germany (42% + 5%=47%) kicks in at under €100,000. Deal with it, or they will deal with you. I once got a notice to prepare to surrender my house because one quarterly estimated tax payment got credited to the wrong office.

Obviously, Canada, Australia, the UK and Ireland present no language problem. I have no idea what multi-lingual Switzerland demands of a foreigner, and I speak three out of their four languages, anyway, just in case. But Germany had a strict language test for residence. They checked me off right away, because I was already fluent when I applied, but there was a Russian in the booth next to me who showed up applying for residence with an interpreter. He was (politely) told to take a hike until he could come back and talk to them without an interpreter

[yellow dahlia]

45. I broke down in tears at a vigil tonight.

I said to an activist friend - I just want my country back.

Should Mr. Dahlia and I have moved to Nova Scotia when we first started talking about it nine years ago?

We are all in pain and exhausted.

[Irish_Dem]

51. We are all grieving the loss of our country.

The loss of American values.

I think most of us had fathers who fought in WWII.
And we are thinking of them, they fought so hard to keep us free.

I saw an older man and his wife in Minneapolis yesterday on TV.
He was furious at ICE and what they did to that poor woman.
He stated his father had risked his life at the Battle of the Bulge.
His father had fought so things like this did not happen in the US.

It is probably too late for us to immigrate elsewhere.

And when we are all gone, the younger people will adapt to the dictatorship.
No reminders of what living free was like.

But who knows, we may have no choice.
I read that Ireland is expediting passports to eligible Americans.
And I can go to Canada as well.

[Cheezoholic]

2. I dont have enough money to move and become a resident of a foreign country, its very very expensive. I wish I could

Unfortunately I feel the same way as your daughter, the best way to preserve one's sanity is to leave. But unfortunately again, those of us that are poor (as usual) will have to do the fighting, dying and suffer the boot of oppression on our necks. I feel your daughters pain and fear. I have children and grandchildren who all are equally scared. I have a granddaughter who is trying to save enough money to move to Switzerland where she travels for work occasionally. I myself traveled their for my work (she works at the same company I did) and its night and day. People smile, they dont live in fear, they're kind and friendly to EVERYONE. But they will laugh at you if you don't know how to plow at the bottom of the bunny hill on ski's like I did lol.

As a note 20 years ago I was seriously planning on relocating there or somewhere near. I had the money. I chose to pay for one child to finish college and pay for my granddaughters college. Thats where my retirement went and thats fine, money well spent. It's sad where parents have to make decisions like that for education in this country and instead gives it to uneducated, untrained, steroid junky wanna be WWF assholes 60k dollars to shoot innocent people in the head.
Peace


FF!!!

[thought crime]

10. If you can't move to another country, maybe try moving to a deep blue state

or community. If you aren't in one already. Then, yell back at the people leaving, "These Colors Don't Run!!".

[Cheezoholic]

15. That's be nice. I cant. I have a small home in the country paid off. I'm 63 and disabled

If I sold there's NO WAY I could afford to get another place to live, to rent let alone buy, in a blue state. You tell me how I could take maybe 150k bucks if I sold my paid off home and moved to say Michigan? I would have to change physicians which is a big deal to me as I've had the same one for 18 years. Where can I buy a house sitting on 3 acres in the middle of nowhere where I'm not going to get bothered in a blue state? The taxes etc. involved in transferring my license plates, my home and car insurance alone would break me on my minimal SSDI fixed income. I have no savings because as I said, I paid for my kids college with it and paid this house off. I don't live in a van and dont want to. People who tell people like me to just shut up and move to a blue state have no idea.

The area I like in is a blue micro dot in a deep red state. My point was I'm so sick of these fucking redneck mini monster truck driving fuck heads making the decisions for me and others in my country. I've been very active in politics since I was 16 years old being the child of a civil rights "radical left" activist. I've been fighting the good fight all my life. But there's a point you get to, especially when your health unexpectedly takes a turn for the worse, that you feel helpless and so so very tired when these fucking fascists keep pressing and pressing no matter how hard you fight back that you just want to walk. To spend the rest of your life in a place where people are kind and good for the most part. I am where I am and there's nothing I can do about it.

Time to go feed the donkey....

[thought crime]

35. If you have a donkey, you'll be okay.

Dogs and Donkeys !!!

[Random Boomer]

47. I'm in a similar situation

I don't blame anyone for leaving, but it's not an option for me. My wife and I are both increasingly disabled by health conditions, so just the thought of moving -- even to save my life -- makes me tired. Our home is paid for, and we have a boatload of cats and a dog. We're as comfortable as we can be living in one of the reddest states in the country.

We attended a candlelight vigil tonight in our local town square. The event was called at short notice, so only about 50 people showed up, but the No Kings protest had at least 300-400 protestors. So we're not completely alone as liberal/Dems, even in this red area.

If the fascists win, we're pretty far down the list of "domestic terrorists" but we're definitely on there. Registered Dems, contributors to the ACLU, lesbian couple. They will get to us eventually, if we don't escape them by dying first.

[cannabis_flower]

16. It's not necessarily that expensive

I’m on Social Security and I’m moving to Colombia next month. First off, I don’t believe Trump is going to invade Colombia. He doesn’t like Petro but Petro’s term is up and he’s gone in a few months.

I went to Colombia in November and stayed 2 months. I sold my car. Gave notice on my lease. Put anything I wanted to keep in storage and bought a plane ticket. I traveled the country and decided I’m moving to Armenia, Colombia. It cost about $600 to get a round trip ticket and an Airbnb there is about $300-500 a month. They have public transportation and Uber is cheap there. Food is also cheap. You can get a pensioner’s visa if you make about $1000 a month in Social Security which allows you to stay up to 3 years and is renewable

Yes, moving to Europe is expensive. But it isn’t necessarily expensive to move to another country. Colombia isn’t the only country that is cheap to move to. Ecuador, Peru, Costa Rica, Panama, Mexico, Thailand, Philippines, Vietnam. All are cheaper than the US.

You might have to burn some bridges (I didn’t pay my last month’s rent, electricity and quit paying my credit cards) to afford it but you can afford it.

[BonnieJW]

20. Won't the credit card companies

Garnish your social security?

[Catlady123]

27. Soc sec is protected from credit card garnishment

Your Social Security retirement benefits are protected from garnishment by credit card companies. Under federal law, these funds are exempt from collection for most unsecured debts, including judgments from credit card lawsuits. That means, even with a valid court order against you, creditors cannot directly take your Social Security payment.

[llmart]

43. That's good to know even for someone like me who has no debt.

I would also like to add for anyone who doesn't already know this that you CAN garnish Social Security for spousal support. I've done it.

[cannabis_flower]

28. No, they can't

Social Security benefits are exempt from garnishment by most private lenders, including credit card companies, due to federal consumer protection laws

https://www.debt.org/retirement/social-security/can-social-security-be-garnished-for-credit-card-debt/#:~:text=Social%20Security%20income%20can't,federal%20Consumer%20Credit%20Protection%20Act.

[Cheezoholic]

22. Like I said, 20 years ago sure. But I'll be lucky to live another 10 years. Not worth the trouble

I have family in Puerto Rico, Trinidad and in Cuba. Thats where part of my family's roots are in the islands. I have an uncle, a retired professor at UC Berkley, who is retiring to Hawaii next month. I have talked to him and his wife about it. But my health once again is the biggest restriction. My original post was in response to the OP's daughters feelings and letting them know I get it. I was ready to go after the stolen election in 2000. I was a poll worker in Florida and was involved in the whole "hanging chad" recount debacle. I and others were threatened every day by Roger Stones Brooks Brothers Brown shirt goons until that was over. That's when I was on the verge of leaving. Like I said, I had been fighting these fucks like many on here most of my life especially through the first 12 years of the Raygun "Whiny Voice" regime. There were a lot of underground battles, physical altercations that were going on then that never got reported. Part of my health problems are from injuries (skull fracture requiring 2 weeks in ICU from a brutal clubbing amongst others) sustained back then.

My whole point about leaving was there are a lot of us that would love to move out of a red state but it really really is expensive if your living month to month on SSDI. My kids and my grandkids all live in blue states now so the fight can carry on with them or the young ones can move if they want. I'll just sit out here in my little house next to my little barn thats half falling down with my dog and my donkey and my guns and shoot back if they come down my driveway lol. Maybe I'll by a guard Billy Goat

[MoonchildCA]

41. It is no longer cheap to move to Mexico.

For temporary residency, you now need over $4000 a month income, or over $72,000 in savings to be able to qualify. The exact numbers vary by consulate. You can likely live off less, depending where you move and the lifestyle you want. If you want to live similar to a middle-class American lifestyle, it’s not that much cheaper. In areas with a decent amount of expats, rents can be similar to the US, and though eating out is consistently less expensive than the US, groceries can be high—especially for imported products, standard American fare, nothing fancy, can run about 3x the price. If you truly live like a local, it can be cheaper, but it’s a very different lifestyle.

[Doodley]

3. I understand her concerns, but the midterms (if they happen) will key to seeing if things can improve.

The UK is going the same way, with the racist Reform party riding high in the polls. Nigel Farage is another Putin Puppet, and will aim to destroy the UK, like Trump is destroying America.

[Dan]

4. I understand your daughter's concern and yours. But I question this

If “we” allow Trump to continue with no accountability - where will he stop and who can stop him? With Trump, there is no safe place on this planet because he would destroy the world for the sake of his ego. And, the boot-licking GOP enablers and supporters would gladly welcome the fires and justify it as the rapture.

[homegirl]

5. I have

a permanent residence permit for Sweden, and one, in a very old passport, for Switzerland. However at 90 the prospect of such a monumental move is discouraging. Though I would make the leap to New Zealand!

[Quiet Em]

6. Your daughter is not alone in that thinking

My oldest daughter has not only been talking about leaving the country, she and her SO have made a few trips overseas to scout out a few places she has in mind. My youngest daughter has always vowed to stay here and fight back, ... that changed yesterday. My husband has the means to become an Irish citizen through his paternal grandfather. I have never, ever imagined leaving this country, but now it is something that I am considering.

[Dave says]

39. My great grandfather immigrated here from Italy

Is it possible to get Italian citizenship based on that?

A nit: I think I heard a couple of months back that (via EO?) you can’t have dual citizenship anymore. You’re either an American or whichever country grants you new citizenship. If you’re no longer a citizen of the US, you lose your social security and Medicare benefits. I suppose medical would be covered by the new country? But I don’t know.

[Quiet Em]

42. Ireland allows dual citizenship for Americans

I'm not familiar with Italy's requirements at all.

[Dave says]

44. I need to research it myself, not have others do the work for me, but...

... I may be wholly wrong, but it is the United States that will no longer allow dual citizenship. You have to pick one or the other. Just (possibly) more glad tidings from the regime.

[FakeNoose]

7. Your daughter's situation might be a little different

Perhaps she can discuss it with her employer, and see if she can step back from the "legal observer" requirements. I don't blame your daughter one bit for feeling afraid right now, but leaving the US isn't necessarily the best solution either. We all believe (and hope) that the midterm elections will change everything, so it might be judicious for her to wait awhile.

[cpamomfromtexas]

8. Doing same with my daughter

Warning her constantly. Keep my gate closed most of the time.

[misanthrope]

11. Good luck with all that, however Europe might not be terribly safe for much longer

Trump is using his predation of Greenland to hack away at NATO. If he gets away with his schemes, he and Putin will squeeze Europe from both sides.

Trump sees the future as the globe divided into empires belonging to him, Putin and Xi.

[FirstLight]

13. I told my trans kid in NC to make an escape plan, NOW

I am selling the last of my parent's property this week and giving each of my kids the 19K non taxable amount...

my son is living with me and will take care of the house if I leave and have to sell it. But my other kid is planning on a "vaction" to Canada, then possibly staying. Once they pass a law against trans people, they can clain refugee status,

I am an online student and can study from anywhere. I am upposed to go to France for the summer with school, was already lookiing into possibly staying in the UK for the following school year. Now it's definitely on the table. I've narowed it down to 3 Uni's in Manchester/Glasgow/and Galway... I will fucking go to the UK before my summer class if I need to get outta here...but right now I am in a remote area so I feel safer than I would in the cities.

My son is oblivious, he doesn't even think he'd be drafted...I don't know if I should be jealous of his not caring, or extremely depressed...

[WokeAintWhatIAm]

25. Contingencies are made...

With all that is on your mind.
The concern for your son who seems unaware.
DId it occur to hold on?
do not let the bastards win...
they figure they can because no one has the will to keep the peace
but stand up when the peace is broken - especially when by those who are meant to keep it.

[mnhtnbb]

14. I have a nephew who has moved to the UK

along with his wife and 3 year old daughter. He was a chemistry professor at a well known public university and was recruited to Manchester University. His wife, a biochem researcher, found a job easily.
It's full circle. My father's family left England in the 19th Century for Canada and eventually ended up in the US. Now a male descendant is returning to England with his family.
My late husband and I started looking at leaving the US in 1994 when we went to New Zealand. That didn't work out. In 2005 , during Bush years, we bought property in Panama, but sold it when Obama was elected. In 2015, we looked at Bonaire when Trump was first becoming a concern. My husband refused to pursue that. When Trump was actually elected, I suggested that if we weren't going to get out of the country, perhaps we could at least leave the mainland, go to Hawaii. He wouldn't do that, either. After he died in 2018, I thought about checking out France or Portugal for myself, but kept putting off a long look see trip because I didn't want to leave my elderly dog for 6 months. Then COVID in 2020. That ended my move abroad idea, and I bought a house where I could hunker down and isolate in the bluest county in NC, among the blue three county area known as the Research Triangle of Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill. Both my sons live nearby.
So here I am--at almost 75--and I just don't have the energy to tackle a move abroad alone. I will hunker down here and hope that not only will there be mid terms this year, but Dems will gain control of both the House and Senate so that the balance of power will be restored to government in order to constrain the felonious fascist wanna be tyrant occupying the Oval Office.

I did renew my passport, though: good until 2035.

[Linda ladeewolf]

21. All some of us can do is hunker down.

Still some of us have to stay, even if it’s just to vote. If we all leave, they win.

[TBF]

17. I've had friends move to Spain and Norway

within the past year. Which involves preparation and cost, of course.

If I were independently wealthy, I'd leave. Currently have been encouraging my daughter to move abroad for grad school. She has finished her undergraduate degree and is working in NYC, so at least that is better than some locales. She's quiet, savvy, and is able to do a lot of her work from home - which is best case scenario currently.

[stollen]

31. My niece got an MA at Edinburgh University.

She loved her time there. Married an English guy and can go between the US and UK easily.

I’m currently in the UK with my dog and husband for hopefully a longer term. Don’t leave your dog. Stay put for now.

[Dave says]

40. My career had me circumnavigating the globe

When returning from Europe (always traveled westward), I always felt like I was leaving civilization for the wild, Wild West.

[Joinfortmill]

18. Be safe.

[jaymac]

19. WHY

are so many BAD REQUEST responses from DU? Is something going on? Anyone else getting these? Can't remember seeing them before

[WokeAintWhatIAm]

23. Words cannot offer solace, but now is not the time for that.

I apologize for the length, but it has it's purpose.

I would like to tell you that all will be alright, and things are going to change for the better, but I will not do that.
I will not do that because uncertainty has become the norm and certainty has become now a lingering memory, perhaps an illusion.
Every classification has deemed now to categorize and separate people from people to create division and spread disinformation.

It is to my regret that my view on history is now unfolding before all our eyes, which is what has been the suppression and subjugation and second class status of the categorized minorities of this nation was always intended to be distributed to the general population under this premise. "If the diverse groups can be subjugated, suppressed and oppressed without push back, the greater similar whole cannot be far behind."

You have the benefit of cultural and familial connections around the world, I have at the age of 54 only become deeply aware of family connections going back to 1855 within the United States. But I have been deepening in my belief since I have first learned about the issue class and designation have on the exercise of basic civil and human rights.

America was not founded on Freedom, Liberty or Justice. It was founded on specific lines of privilege for the class of the founding members of the United States. White males were property holders for whom the law was meant to protect. The law was the hedge the privileged class built to suppress the possibility that the 'rabble' overthrew the 'gentry'.

In my study of history, psychological and sociological - the tyranny of the majority (the rabble) was meant to prevent the commoner from creating political power which suppressed the minority (the wealth holding class). Working people had been referred to as Wage Slaves when they were seeking a means of income and enslavement was a method of alleviating the burden of Wage Slave existence.

Enslavement became a means to profit from the labor of an individual while making no effort oneself. After the political war between the slave holding class and the burgeoning industrial, production class - two monied interests, war began on the basis of who controlled the wealth of the nation and by what means that wealth would become the possession of one class or the other.

Slavery wished to be spread to where slavery was not wanted, remember this.
Those who wished not to be exposed to enslavement fought to contain it - but not eliminate it in it's existent form.
One monied class wished to dominate the other on the basis of profit.
The other monied class wished to compartmentalize the slave economy and culture to where it was already established.

Six hundred thousand would die before the violence would end. But the tension did not dissipate - but fester, change form, find other outlets. Represented by 100 years ago the United States having pockets of great wealth, and areas where running water and sanitation was as mythical as the unicorn.

How does this apply to you.

Men, often white men, who accumulate wealth and resources needed by most of humanity see themselves as a benefactor, a provider to the 'lower' class of people. Often see themselves as able to exert their will against those who do not hold; 1) financial wealth, 2) political influence, 3) connection to power and thus do not have the means to exert their will against others.

These men do not believe they are part of the human race, people. People who think, cry, experience conflict and find the means to resolve conflict in a human and mutually beneficial way. They have left their humanity at the alter of materialism and power. They believe others are to perform and function at their demand and will not speak above a soft tone to get the behavior they are seeking from others.

This is not humanity. Empathy does not condescend from them, it is weakness. Error does not occur by them to be corrected - it exists to be obscured or justified by superior social order. They have their supporters who are the remora swimming along to do whatever instructed to catch the crumbs of their latest victim which they gladly help to attract and place in harms way.

Until the mass of people - all people make a declaration. That every person, on this planet, regardless of their origin or location, ethnicity or culture is deserving of the respect of their humanity. The right to be unharmed, left alone and respected in the sanctity of their person as long as they are exercising that same respect for others. And if they fail to respect those rights of others, they become subject to the law - equally, mutually and fully in the same regard from the lowest to the highest in our society and our world.

It is only when people are made uncomfortable do they choose to grow. Shoes too tight? You get a bigger size. Clothes don't fit? You get more comfortable fitting clothing - circumstances demonstrating to you that the government merely relied on the willingness of people to be respectful for the sake of living peacefully with one another, because that is American?

What has been American has been those with wealth using that wealth to gain more wealth at the cost of life if need be without regard to the future. I do not disagree it is nice to have 'things'. But when people become the 'thing', human need - the 'thing', human suffering, health and welfare - the thing of profit and control, it means that the system which function this way are unsustainable and work to serve a highly fortunate few, and to disregard a semi-conscious mass.

It is time to stop being comfortable with what has been and work to make a sustainable world for every man, woman, child, and being on this planet. This does not mean Socialism, Communism, or seek to eliminate Capitalism. It is essentially the tower of Babel in regard. Nimrod sought to build a tower to heaven on the backs of his subjects so that he could conquer it for himself.

This time it is not up to God to scatter this foolishness to the winds. But the people to learn to speak a language of unification regardless of difference. Find common ground of humanity without trying to destroy each other on minutia.

I want for you and yours what I want for me and mine - Peace, opportunity and the respect of safety, caring as much for yours as I do for my own. We're not going to get there until we join the human race, and recognize the need for unity at critical points even if we disagree.

Let's get freedom and justice for all finally.

[WokeAintWhatIAm]

24. Check direction

If a people can be made to believe there are those who are subhuman and made to be subjugated and controlled for the benefit of those with the financial and socio-politcal power to do so, without anyone attempting to liberate them. Then those that accept it can be given some status without true power of their own and controlled.

Made to be comfortable, lulled into a sense of safety - in truth, the desire is to control everyone who is not within their group. This is not a conspiracy. In the 80 or so years between the Revolution and Civil War, the slave owning class conscripted any citizen white or black into fugitive recovery. The restoration of property to the owner. The allowance of slavery to exist in free areas if enslaved persons were transported into free states, thus pushing the boundaries of enslavement not to one region, but to anywhere someone wanted to unburden themselves with the same conditions of life we experience - having to strive to live. Having someone to deal with the menial tasks of life.

Wage Slavery was a form of slavery which continued following indentured servitude - for Europeans, and the racial, ethnic divisions amongst white people of Irish, Italian, Polish, Romanian (any Slavic country, for that matter who were the original enslaved of Europe and the steppes of Asia).

The modern era only came about to engender compliance - not change. Facilitating calm, but not evolution.
We have reached a generation so far from the truth of socio-economic stratification it was understood America was heading toward communism until F.D.R. created programs which did not disconnect the common person from the benefit of what was supposed to be the opportunity of America.

American opportunity was there if you could afford it, 100 years after the causes of every early 20th century conflict the conditions still exist because the system has not changed due to people not being uncomfortable enough to focus on what that system is doing to create the circumstances in which they live.

Change does not come when one is comfortable - change comes when what is uncomfortable becomes unbearable to the point it reaches critical mass - demonstrated multiple times over the last century.

Peace, hope, never relent - Donec Auroram Videamus

[RandySF]

26. Renes's family is saying otherwise.

Not putting shade but the family and her ex-husband said she was on her way home from school drop-off. It's possible they were unaware of any activism.

[Arazi]

29. It takes about a year from start to finish to get out ime

From getting residency, permits for animals, setting up bank accounts, arranging new jobs, selling one’s house/personal items etc.

Anyone contemplating this should be working towards this now. To do it with the least amount of stress it will take about a year.

(Regardless, it is stressful)

[Srkdqltr]

30. I don't know how to feel about people who choose to leave because things are difficult.

If you have the connections and money, GO.
I wonder this is how people left behind to deal with problems in the past after friends swaned off to greener pastures felt.

[Random Boomer]

48. How do you feel about the people who left Germany before the outbreak of WWII?

The Jews who stayed because they couldn't afford to leave or who believed things couldn't get THAT bad in civilized, cosmopolitan Germany were largely eliminated. Germans who didn't agree with Hitler's plans didn't fair very well either.

My yearning to leave is based on my feeling of alienation from the American people and culture, not just the American government. I've seen the signs of fascism growing stronger year by year for decades, the obsession with wealth, the erosion of financial options for the working and middle-class.

For a host of reasons, I'm not leaving. I don't expect a happy ending. Maybe America will surprise me. One can hope.

[Srkdqltr]

49. Yes, but i was just wondering how the left behind felt. Even if they survived?

Even if they encouraged others to leave? Just wondering in general.
There have been waves of people moving someplace else forever. I just had a thought about the ones who watched them go to maybe never see them again.

[Random Boomer]

53. I'm one of the left-behinds

I wish them Godspeed and good luck.

[Srkdqltr]

54. Ok good.

[Nigrum Cattus]

38. I ain't leaving

I'm not running
I'm fighting
I'm not scared
I'm mad
If you leave, don't come back

[struggle4progress]

46. "The only chains, that we can stand, are the chains of hand in hand"

[artemisia1]

52. It is good you have the financial ability to help her. Many trapped here do not have such help. I wish her well

and hope she finds a good, non-fascist country to settle in. Ours is wrecked. Not so much by Trump -- although he's helped -- but by the millions who support him and people like him. Yes, MAGA is a virus, but it is also a revealer of what we've been for some time -- and perhaps always.