We Have To Fight Dirty

[CitizenZero]

Part of the problem with being liberal or progressive is about being too compassionate. Our enemy is steeped in malice and has no reservations about using dirty tricks. Trump and his allies are skilled at using dirty tricks because they have been using them their entire lives. Trump was trained by the criminal lawyer Roy Cohn and probably recruited (or at least duped) by Russian intelligence a long time ago. Trump and his allies have no problem violating the normal rules of conduct, while we are bound by our dedication to the norms of democracy and the rule of law. This is why America has always had such an effective intelligence service. We have always needed someone on our side that is not afraid of using dirty tricks to defend democracy. So maybe we should take a lesson from that and stop fighting fair and start fighting dirty. It may be the only way to save America.

[msongs]

1. just truth telling will do it. no more of this repubs will love us if we bend over BS nt

[kerry-is-my-prez]

2. We should have our own propaganda. That's how the Reps started.

[Kaleva]

3. Rigging elections is an example of fighting dirty

[Paladin]

4. I've been hollering about this, for decades.

Democrats have been getting creamed by our enemies for years, because we've been playing according to a set of good-conduct rules that our enemies discarded, years and years ago. Enough. Get angry, get smart, and if necessary (and don't fool yourself, it will be necessary), fight dirty.

I'm sick to death of the police state opposition putting us in the losers' corner---there's no comfort anymore in telling ourselves "Well, at least we played fair." Screw that---I want my country back from the sub-human filth that is in control, now. Again I say: Enough.

[CitizenZero]

6. Right On

I completely agree.

[Kaleva]

25. Blackmail, bribery, death threats are examples of fighting dirty

Pretty much anything that could land a person, if caught, in prison for a long stretch.

[CitizenZero]

32. Espionage

Espionage is generally considered a serious crime in most legal systems. But I would add that no nation has ever won a war without spies, dirty tricks, and related operations. The Nazis did not fight fair, so the Allies had to resort to some extreme measures to fight them. No major nation in the modern era has existed without a clandestine service and also a military.

I am not suggesting that we indulge in the worst kinds of actions against our enemies but I am saying that we should be prepared for a possible escalation of the situation. Self defense may demand certain amounts of moral compromise. I hope that it does not get to that point. I hope that the current dire situation is resolved peacefully and democratically.

But it is a dire situation and we need to be real about what it is. Fascists generally do not give up power unless forced to. Hopefully there will be elections next year and we will regain the Congress. But we should make contingency plans in case something else happens.

[Kaleva]

36. Interesting viewpoint

[Jack Valentino]

44. We COULD campaign partly on the FACT that the Republican Party is full of child molesters and sex criminals,

along with a list of them.... This would be 'slander' if it wasn't true, but the fact is, it IS true
and ought to be hammered upon more in Democratic advertising.

Certainly the Republicans would--- well, in fact they DO, but in their case it usually IS slander,
since they make shit up like the "pizzagate" child-sex abuse fantasy...

We could play in their ballpark and wouldn't even have to make stuff up,
just copy news articles... we could make a BOOK out of it!

[LauraInLA]

47. Excellent, though I wouldn't call that "fighting dirty," as it's legal.

[CitizenZero]

50. Fighting Dirty

Fighting dirty does not have to mean "illegal".

[Jack Valentino]

52. The TOPIC is DIRTY, but we have shied away from it far too much....

especially in light of the manufactured "Dem sex scandals" from the right.

We've had a loaded shotgun sitting here for a long time, which we have refused to pick up and use.

[CitizenZero]

49. Good Example

That is a good example of how we could "fight dirty" yet stay in the right. Thank you for commenting.

[LauraInLA]

5. How do we fight dirty?

[CitizenZero]

7. Many Ways

Lies, propaganda, dark money, clandestine operations. People who do nonviolent civil disobedience are important but we also need a security and intelligence service for the Opposition.

[TearsOfDaClowned]

30. Know Your Enemy's Toolkit to Defend Against Him

Though I hesitate at embracing the dark arts because THAT is the distortion of belief that has truly victimized the left. Lies & corruption do more harm to US. It is good to be good. It is just not in itself ENOUGH. Propaganda is not in itself a bad thing. It is promoting your point of view above all other considerations. If that leads you to lie then that is a bad choice. Rather it should lead you to be a GREAT COMMUNICATOR because you know how to message beyond effectively...so you must KNOW the liar's tricks but don't BECOME him!

[CitizenZero]

39. Good Response

I would say that the most effective propaganda has truth at its heart. I am not saying that we should all go down a dark path, but we are being forced into this situation by Trump MAGA. We are not the aggressors here. We would be acting in self defense. You can't defeat a Fascist Regime with a wet noodle. Exercising a certain degree of force and power might be necessary.

[Inkey]

9. By pointing out the obvious problems

Caused by incompetent people getting
elected. They are not on the people's side.
There is less or no representation in our State and Federal government members.
Point out their flaws and demand better.

[LauraInLA]

29. I wouldn't have called that "dirty", though.

[CitizenZero]

11. I Would Add

I would add that Putin and the Russians probably have something compromising on Trump. Maybe something with Epstein. Part of fighting dirty is digging up dirt on your enemies and using that against them. If we could expose the Epstein files I would bet that Trump and other MAGAs are in there. I would bet RFK Jr. as well.

[Tetrachloride]

18. ways. ))

[Jack Valentino]

45. See my post

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=20272467

[Eko]

8. Cause going down that road leads to them.

They use propaganda, fear, duplicity, fakery and belief in the untrue. I am not going down that road. Not at all. We can fight very well without going down that road. Even if we win doing that we have lost everything including ourselves.

[CitizenZero]

10. Right

The majority of the population must abide by the law and nonviolent civil resistance should be the main action. That said, every modern nation state has a clandestine service and a military. We may need to literally fight for our democracy. The Resistance needs soldiers and covert operatives. Dirty tricks in defense of democracy might be a necessary evil. But the main body of the Resistance needs to be nonviolent and keep their hands clean. So the majority should remain peaceful. But we might need a percentage of the Resistance to be militant or covert.

[Eko]

12. Sure, but we are not in an actual war.

And its one thing to be like them were their political party is doing that vs if we ever get to an actual war having our political party not do that but our military wing do so. Using those methods in politics is what they do. We must never do that. Our politics has to be right. Not wrong like theirs. Military is a different thing. You are talking about our politics becoming like theirs and conflating it with actual military tactics. Very dangerous. Very. Once again Very.

[CitizenZero]

15. Maybe

But we sort of are already in a Domestic Cold War that could turn into an actual shooting war. I hope that it does not come to that, but we must prepare a contingency plan now while we have the chance. Otherwise we could lose and this Fascist Regime might last for many years. Democracy is worth fighting for.

[Eko]

20. "But we sort of are already in a Domestic Cold War"

Are the operative words. But you have to distinguish between political actions and military actions. You know why they are going to lose? Because they dont. They treat politics as a war and in doing so they mix the two and it leads to actions not based on rational decisions. By all available evidence they will shoot themselves in the foot to win a political point. And they keep doing it. Repeatedly. Jesus they have what kegstand hegseth? We have former Chief of Staff John Kelly, retired Gens. Mark Milley and Jim Mattis. H.R. McMaster, Mark Esper, Stanley McChrystal, Mike Mullen, and James Stavridis. Those are some serious people. Nah, keep our politics clean and right and our military focused on the job.

[CitizenZero]

23. I Don't Think

I don't think that we fully disagree. I repeat- the majority of the Resistance should keep it's hands clean, including their politics. Not everyone is cut out to be a soldier or intelligence officer. I do believe in civilian control over the military and agree that we have the better soldiers and generals. To imply otherwise is a bit of a straw man argument.

[Tetrachloride]

19. Steve Biko character in a movie said "well, we're at war"

[Eko]

22. Such a cool dude but he was wrong.

His actions that led to his death were not any one would take on a war footing. Still a way cool dude.

[Eko]

13. If you follow Rogue one

There is a distinct difference between Bail Organa and Saw Gerrera. Saw is good for some dirty actual fighting but Bail is the one that does our politics and they are totally different. You are asking for our politics to become Saw Gerrera and that is folly.

[CitizenZero]

16. No

I explicitly state that the main thrust of the Resistance must be nonviolent civil resistance. The majority of the Resistance must keep it's hands clean. But we need to have a certain percentage that are military, law enforcement, and intelligence services. And by that I mean actual federal military, law enforcement, and intelligence officers that are loyal to their Constitutional Oaths and not to the Dictator Trump.

Somebody has to say this stuff out loud. We are in a Domestic Cold War with an Unconstitutional and Undemocratic Fascist Regime. That is a very serious thing. But again, the main action for the Resistance should be nonviolent civil resistance. But we need to prepare military, law enforcement, and the intelligence services for the possibility of escalation. To be clear, I do not want to see that escalation. I would much rather see a peaceful and democratic resolution to what is a pretty dire political situation. That said, we must prepare for the possibility of the situation getting worse.

[Eko]

24. Thats not what you said.

"while we are bound by our dedication to the norms of democracy and the rule of law."
Give those up and we are them.

[CitizenZero]

26. I Repeat

I have said that the main body of the Resistance should be dedicated to nonviolent civil resistance and should keep it's hands clean. That includes it's politics. You continue to labor under a straw man argument. My point is that a percentage of the Resistance should prepare for a dirty fight. Nazis and Fascists do not stand down by being asked to do so politely.

[Eko]

28. These were your actual words. Not strawman at all.

"while we are bound by our dedication to the norms of democracy and the rule of law."

[CitizenZero]

37. I Never Said

I never said that the entire movement should abandon it's principles and adherence to law and democratic norms. You are cherry picking some of my statements and continue to ignore how I have qualified my position elsewhere. I repeat- the majority of the movement should engage in nonviolent civil resistance and keep it's hands clean. That means no dirty politics and no dirty tricks from the main body of the Resistance. To use your Rogue One analogy, that means the Civil and Political arm of the movement would keep it's hands clean and stay separate from the Military and Intelligence arm of the movement.

[Eko]

38. Huh.

"So maybe we should take a lesson from that and stop fighting fair and start fighting dirty. " Were you referring to the non-existent military arm of our party or the one and only political arm?

[CitizenZero]

41. I Am Talking About

I am talking about something larger than the party- I am talking about the Resistance Movement. And our military is the United States Military. The U.S. Military is right now nominally under the control of the Trump Regime. I am certain that a significant portion is loyal to Trump but *our* military is the one that is loyal to their Oaths to the Constitution and not to the Dictator Trump. See General Milley's speech, which I am certain you are familiar with. Also see the YouTube videos of Malcolm Nance, a retired Navy Chief and Intelligence Specialist who talks about this very subject. Again, I hope that this situation is resolved peacefully and democratically but we must be prepared for all possible contingencies. Fascists rarely give up power willingly.

[Eko]

42. huh

"Part of the problem with being liberal or progressive is about being too compassionate."
That is our strength.
"Trump and his allies have no problem violating the normal rules of conduct, while we are bound by our dedication to the norms of democracy and the rule of law."
That is our strength.
"So maybe we should take a lesson from that and stop fighting fair and start fighting dirty."
No. That is our strength. We are the good guys and girls and they and them and all that.
That is our strength.
When you come on here and say we should get rid of that I have to wonder and hopefully educate your that that is our strength. That is how we have been winning for a long time and that is why we will win for a long time.
Freedom, peace, truth, reality, not propaganda fear and lies. Not demonization. None of that. To do what they do, I cant be a part of that.

[CitizenZero]

46. It Is Fine

It is fine if you feel that you can not be a part of that. That is your personal choice. My personal choice is to fight back. The current situation is similar to Germany in the 1930s. The Nazis were defeated by force. I myself do not intend to go quietly. I do hope that freedom, peace, and truth prevail, but American democracy is alive because people fought and died in defense of it. You defend it in your own way, and that is fine. I will defend it in my own way.

[Eko]

54. I never said I wont fight back.

I just said I wont steep to using their political tactics to do so as you called for. Big difference. War tactics are another thing entirely. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't meaner than you are and are not more educated than you on said tactics. Your political beliefs change that in no way no matter what form. Having a war front as the republicans have had for a while now for their politics has led them to thinking a win is a win when it is in reality a loss. Because they believe their own propaganda. Any political party that relies on lies, fear and the rest will succumb to those lies and fear. They will never be able to follow the actual reality of war. Their belief will overcome that reality and they will act on that fake reality instead of the rules of war and do stupid things because of course they cant lose. Their politics tell them so. Look at Russia and Ukraine. Russia believed they would win in 2-3 days. Because of politics. They thought that Ukraine would just fold. Politically. Militarily though, that was a different story. With extended lines with no logistical support russia just couldnt keep up the attack to a Ukraine that was resisting. They had tons of tanks and APC's but when they were backed up due to resistance they had no resupplies to keep the momentum. It was a masterclass in Ukraine putting up a fight and acting like a modern western military. Not a political class. Zelensky never had to change his politics to be like Putin. He stayed free, kept his country free. His military kicked ass. Ill end with this, you are essentially talking about our politics to bend to the military class. The use of deception, Lying, falsehood, things that even you admit our military uses. What country did that work out well with?

[CitizenZero]

55. Yeah

Last edited Sun Apr 27, 2025, 01:40 AM - Edit history (1)

I never said that you won't fight back. I said "you defend it your way" which is another way of saying "fighting back". So your post is an extended straw man diatribe. Tedious. You are ascribing to me positions that I do not hold and then making extensive arguments against the positions that I do not hold. Straw Man. You have made extended inferences from my statements that have nothing to do with my position or my intent. This obscures any points that you make that I might, in fact, agree with. I really don't have the inclination to perpetually correct someone who completely misunderstands what I am saying and ascribes to me positions that I do not hold.

[betsuni]

56. Yes, and trying to turn strengths into weaknesses is what the opposition does.

[TearsOfDaClowned]

34. I never did give anybody hell.I just told the truth & they thought it was hell

Remember our side when it is strong. It STANDS in TRUTH! The shape shifting employed by the post Reagan Dems has never served us well. Did you see Al Gore the other day. If that man had run in 2000, Bush would be in the baseball biz!

*special thanks to Harry Truman...

[BannonsLiver]

14. Still a lot of folks who just don't get it and never will.

[JoseBalow]

17. This seems like an appropriate place to quote Nietzsche...

[CitizenZero]

21. Good Quote

But Nietzsche never had to defend a Democracy against a Fascist Regime. So I say that we must fight fire with fire, and maybe recruit some monsters to our side. Otherwise we might just have to roll over and accept MAGA rule.

[TearsOfDaClowned]

40. Sadly We Have Schmoozers & Pragmatists Throughout Our Democratic Leadership

...when they were faced with ruthless liars even their hapless recounting of a competent handling of the government coming out of the catastrophe of TRUMP 1 led to a wipeout. A nation full of Dems couldn't talk frankly for themselves or explain what they were about. The party of Roosevelt, JFK, Clinton could not use the tools of communication... distorted by the new media, social media, and new alien spheres of contact.
.. to put across a relatable identifiable message. We are being reminded in these 100 days that with all their lies, tricks, obfuscations & Joe Rogan coming through the XBOX that REALITY STILL EXISTS even if some are blissfully ignoring it. Truth is still the weapon we must forge effectively so that it still cuts through lies, disinformation, and chimeras!

[H2O Man]

27. Recommended.

I will speculate that there are others from my generation who learned the arts here on DU. I don't think I'm alone. In my opinion, the best course of action, in the context of social-political monkey warfare, is to get the public to laugh at them. I also believe in demonstrations in the spirit of Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Gordcanuck]

31. I read a lot of these Milquetoast responses to oppression,

and you are going down if you don’t fight fire with fire. I don’t live there, I don’t know local situations.
I would say this is a Tbilisi story in the making, and if peaceful you can have an enormous effect. Actually more in US than there.
The feds cannot ignore you and anyone who stands up for states rights will have their say.
California is leading the way, and Texas has been hit hard on some fronts. Even though that state has the constitutional right to secede from the Union it will not come to that. Noises will be made, however.
But be careful , your “ United States” may not stay so united near term. We’ve never had that here so it’s hard to give you any experience of ours to look at.🇨🇦
]

[yourout]

33. Sweep the leg...Johny.

?si=_2BmQvljCX2fl_jE

[Blues Heron]

35. That's what they want you to do. The only way to beat them is with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but.

Non violent resistance, a STRICT adherence to the truth is the only way.

[dalton99a]

43. Democrats need to get rid of their inane and self-destructive obsession with purity and perfection.

Do whatever it takes to WIN.

[Jack Valentino]

48. I agree. Time to talk nationally about all the Republican child molesters and sex criminals!

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=20272467

[JustAnotherGen]

51. I'm a Democrat First

That means I don't have to be nice be nice to my enemy. See Harry Truman for reference. Now I don't want to drop nuclear bombs on the maga Republican voters - I just want things to get bad enough to hurt them.

[LudwigPastorius]

53. We need to take a page from Master Ken.

[betsuni]

57. And the dream of Both Sides comes true! La la la!