And ANOTHER reason we Democrats lost and will continue to lose

[AverageOldGuy]

Two to three times a week, I watch a few minutes of Fox. I'm a regular on MSNBC, especially Rachel and Lawrence; I check out CNN a few times daily.

For the longest time I've noticed the different level of language used on Fox vs. the level of language used on MSNBC and CNN.

Fox vocabulary is geared to the high school dropout. MSNBC, CNN, and Democrats in general talk at the Master's and PhD level.

For example, MSNBC and CNN talk incessantly about "misogyny". WTF is misogyny? I guarantee you, if you stand in front of WalMart and ask 100 people to define the word, they will have no idea what you are talking about but we Democrats all over misogyny -- and no one understands what we are talking about.

Ditto for "infrastructure," "international alliances," "autocrat/autocracy," and dozens of other terms that you will not hear on Fox.

And how about "a woman's right to choose" versus "ripping a baby from the womb".

Then there's "people of color," "Latinx," "South Asian" vs. "them."

And I still don't know what "cis gendered" is . . . when I hear anyone talking about "cis gender," I just shake my head, tune out, and think "Well, shit, we lost that argument."

Democrats speak like college professors and lawyers, not like real people. Pay attention next time you watch MSNBC or CNN.

[onecaliberal]

1. There is zero chance any legacy media gets a nano second of my time.

[totodeinhere]

2. Are people really that stupid? If so God help us. n/t

[Elessar Zappa]

4. The answer is yes.

I’d guess the average IQ here on DU is 120 and above. In reality, 100 is the average which means a lot of people below that.

[BlueKota]

56. That's a interesting point about the average IQ.

I was thinking along the lines of what the hell have they been teaching in schools, because some of the ones in their 20's don't seem to have even basic knowledge of how government works? I just told my cousin maybe they need to bring back School House Rock on an online platform.

[NJCher]

85. speaking as a teacher

It's because they were on their cell phones.

They are beginning to straighten that out in NY and NJ, but it has been a long time in coming and the process is very slow. The parents themselves are a problem, insisting they need to get ahold of their kid at any time. Nevertheless , I heard an interview with the superintendent of NYC public schools and in 1-2 years cell phones will be out of the classroom.

I quit one particular type of class because I felt I was wasting my time with it. I asked a student a question and she was so engaged in the cell phone that she actually looked at a student across the room and said, "I am so Snapchattin' that." It was like my question didn't even exist.

[BlueKota]

92. Wow that's bad

I get parents wanting to be able to communicate with their kids in an emergency, but you think they'd understand the kids aren't going to be able to resist using their cell phones for other things that distract them in class.

Heck even adults have a hard time trying to resist them when their mind is supposed to be elsewhere. That's great the NY Superintendent plans to intervene.

[NJCher]

93. the super is heading it up but

It is actually a huge effort, made up of hundreds of teachers and researchers. There are all kinds of academic studies, too, showing what a detriment they are to learning.

And when this whole cell phone thing started years and years ago, with letting them have it in the classroom, I was screaming blood murder but I may have been howling in the wilderness. Nobody supported me; nobody wanted to go up against a kid determined to use the cell phone during class.

[Meadowoak]

59. average IQ of a liberal is 106, while the average IQ of a conservative is 95.

[Nimble_Idea]

15. wow......you really didn't know??....

there is no help for that.

[newdayneeded]

139. nice insult!!!!!!!!!!!

Good one!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know either, and........you better sit down......a LOT of democrats don't know either.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

29. All I know is that my IQ is higher than the average - 100 IQ is the average or mean.

I suspect that a lot of people here have much higher IQ’s than 100. If you have a 100 IQ, your brain is mush.

[Fiendish Thingy]

51. You'd be wrong

68% of people have IQ’s between 85-115

14% have IQ’s between 115-130

2% have IQ’s above 130 (genius level)

An IQ of 100 is perfectly normal and average and common, and not mush, although people of all intellectual levels can fall for conspiracy theories and other nonsense if they don’t have critical thinking skills.

[white_wolf]

52. I do wonder how much is education or lack thereof

Are all these people actually stupid or did our underfunded education system just do a terrible job? I don't know and I guess it doesn't really matter. This level of ignorance is just as dangerous as actual stupidity.

[niyad]

69. There is, and always has been, a very strong strain of anti-intellectualism

in this country. And, frankly, it seems to be getting worse.

[BlueKota]

86. I am 127

[Sailingdiver]

39. Yes.They.Are.

[niyad]

68. Belated happy 12th DUnniversary to you.

[Polly Hennessey]

78. Yes and yes. You need to understand that large segments of our

population are undereducated. Simple, plain language works for them. It’s one reason they are susceptible to con artists like Trump.

[LeftInTX]

88. You don't have to be stupid not to know those words

[uponit7771]

154. ***YES !!!*** When you're born on 1.5 base you don't have to be smart !!

[whathehell]

155. No, it's more about ignorance than stupidity.

A lot of what the OP says is true, imo..I think we need to find a way to reach them, to 'educate' them, in a non-condescending, respectful manner.

[marybourg]

3. I guess tRump knew what he was doing wearing ill-fitting

cheap suits and baseball caps and talking like a low-level mobster.

[TwilightZone]

21. Oh, he knows his audience like nobody does.

The entire persona, even the crazy shit, was intentionally designed to appeal to a very specific audience, and he plays that role to a T.

[marybourg]

23. That's what con-men excel at.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

41. He actually uses the same methods as a cult leader.

I have no doubt that he has read books on how to manipulate people (remember Ivana Trump saying Mein Kampf was lying next to Trumps bed)? Trumps fascination and admiration of Hitler? And there are plenty more books around that can teach you these things. I have no doubt that Trumps brain is very developed when it comes to being able to manipulate people (it certainly isn’t developed in many other areas).

[niyad]

71. Slight correction. It was a book of hitler's speeches, not "Mein Kampf".

[Abolishinist]

49. You bring up a point that I've often wondered about.

Is it a conscious decision on his part, i.e. does he KNOW he's playing to them, that's his plan, or is this behavior so ingrained in him that he honestly doesn't realize that he's doing so.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

30. Remember George W. Bush and his appeal?

[marybourg]

38. I think he really

was low I.Q.

[J_William_Ryan]

5. "Democrats speak like college professors and lawyers, not like real people."

So the ‘solution’ is for Democrats to act stupid, ignorant, and hateful like Trump voters.

[Rebl2]

6. Good god

I hope not.

[TwilightZone]

11. That's the message I'm getting.

[Sympthsical]

125. I don't think it's meant to be taken that way

I think general intelligence applied socially falls into three categories: IQ, EQ, and street smarts (for lack of a better term).

IQ is what one assumes. Ability to understand and process information. EQ is the ability to read and understand people. Street smarts is a knowledge base generated outside of formal education.

One of the problems I think we have among people higher up in the party - not just the political consultants, but people like media figures, influencers, academics, and activists - is that you have people at a decent level of intelligence who don't have a lot of real world experience outside of their cozy enclaves. If I had a nickel for every time I've said on DU, "So . . . have you ever actually met people?" I'd buy a vacation home.

There are just so many times and instances where I come into Democratic and liberal spaces to see people talking with each other and nodding enthusiastically in agreement on things that anyone with even passing knowledge on how human beings actually think and behave would know people absolutely do not like. And this environment gets created where if you're in the tribe, you use language and concepts that only other people in the tribe respond to. Spend too much time with like-minded people, and it's easy to start assuming that everyone uses and responds to that language.

Language matters. Communication is the only thing we have, and if we aren't aware that we're only communicating with ourselves, problems can arise. I've had instances, more times than I care, when I'm talking with someone I'm generally in political agreement with, and then they start sounding like a Twitter pseudo-intellectual. I always wonder how glazed over my eyes look when my brain goes absolutely out to lunch mid-conversation.

I do think one of the perils of the bubble people live in on social media is that they unlearn how to talk to people who aren't like themselves. If it's fun, you merely get these stories, "And then I said to the cashier that I would never vote for a cis-gendered misogynist autocrat, and everyone applauded!" Yes. Doesn't that happen at everyone's 7-11? But at its worst, it leads to people tuning us out. We're not talking to anyone anymore. We're just talking to ourselves. The problem is when we haven't noticed when and where that threshold exists and when it gets crossed.

The OP could've been articulated better, but the gist of its sentiment isn't wrong in my experience. Time and again I read things and think, "I really hope these people aren't interacting with voters."

[Nimble_Idea]

19. or keep saying the same thing every 2 or 4 years.

don't validate the hate, but communicate.

[Qutzupalotl]

26. No, just use simpler language

and throw in a definition or two when using a word you wouldn't hear on, say, Tiktok.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

44. Clinton was a master at communicating with the voters.

[Qutzupalotl]

48. Yes he was. We should talk like Clinton

and frame the debate like Buttigieg.

[Blue_Roses]

122. Because he grew up with them in Arkansas

But yet, he got a great education, was a Rhodes Scholar, and an overall, good bullshitter.

I think this is an art--knowing how to talk to different people of various backgrounds and educations.

When I started teaching, I realized soon, that I had to "dumb it down" some without sounding condescending. After several times of telling them to settle down and stop talking, I finally just said, "Cut the crap." It worked, because that's what they identified with and understood.

Bill Clinton is like that and reads people well.

[Liberal In Texas]

28. "College professors and lawyers" are real people.

They're just not uneducated, unread cultists. Which is the Fox demographic.

The right does have the knack for coining talking points that can be catchy or at least memorable, even if they're lies. And the repeat them over and over to make sure the listener eventually believes them as fact.

[snowybirdie]

132. Thank you

As hubby was both, I do feel like a real person. PS He also grew up with lower middle class people and clawed his way up. That used to mean something.

[TheKentuckian]

50. You can't discern ANY space for simpler language

that doesn't immediately translate to acting stupid, ignorant, and hateful?

That position seems fairly unreasonable and seems like a haughty confession of an absolute refusal to speak to the audience in a fashion that doesn't exclude them from the tip.

The same thesaurus with the $10 words has some cheap ones too and using them on occasion in no way crude or hateful.

Everyone is just not at the same level as far as vocabulary goes and it is on those with the greater mastery to be able to use the more diverse set of tools to bear in order to communicate effectively.

[bovine6]

82. Bravo!

The arrogance by some in this thread!

Basically saying, "well if they don't know what cis-gendered or misogyny means or they congregate at Wal-Mart, who needs them?"
Well, this democracy, before it died a couple of nights ago, needed their vote, at any rate. Or at least a hope that they might consider voting blue, perhaps only one in twenty or so, but that's long dashed when what they hear and read from educated democrats is basically some condescending form of "have a good day at the loading dock, hick." It's bigotry.

I live in a red area of a blue state and as much as I cringe at bumper stickers and flags that read "freedom is not free" and "don't tread on me" and the usual, that sort of direct simplicity is one way people win elections.

Simple language. There's nothing wrong with it. I'm too tired to link it up but if anyone hasn't heard George Carlin's hall-of-fame level oration about the term "shellshock" and how it has withered down to flabbiness -- because of language -- with each successive generation, please do so.

[Skittles]

80. love being told the educated are not REAL PEOPLE

kind of like the COAST FOLK AREN'T REAL AMERICANS

[comradebillyboy]

156. They aren't the only real people.

To win broad political support the Party needs to communicate effectively with a lot more folks than it reaches now. Like Bill Clinton, Democrats need to be much more effective at messaging to the broader public.

The Democrats have been looking like elitist snobs lately and that just isn’t working. Maybe Dems should start asking the unwashed masses what their priorities are and, like Clinton, triangulate to where the voters are.

[Skittles]

159. LOL

no, Dems live in REALITY - rightwing assholes listening exclusively to RIGHTWING GARBAGE - THEY are the ones who live in a FANTASY WORLD

NOTHING we do will help as long as the MSM sanewashes every piece of bullshit repukes pull - NOTHING

[Irish_Dem]

7. Kamala's campaign was geared to a junior high educational level.

I paid close attention. The words, the sentences, the concepts were kept simple and clear.

Then we had all the bands, singers, balloons, fun, games.

She did her best to dumb it down to the American IQ level and personality.

[TwilightZone]

14. I got the same impression.

It clearly wasn't aimed at PhDs and rocket scientists.

[Irish_Dem]

24. I am a PhD and it was not aimed at me.

Kamala is a very bright and educated woman.
She can have a decent conversation with a room of PhDs with no problem.

But PhDs do not need words of one syllable and short sentences.
And bands and singers after each speech.
And online games and balloons.
Constant music and props.

The campaign was geared to a 7th to 9th grade level.
And rightly so. This is where the American people are these days.

[TwilightZone]

33. 7th or 8th grade is pretty much the consensus.

When speaking to a general or "average" audience, professionals in the public speaking world usually recommend 7th to 8th.

It's not a coincidence that her campaign was aiming for that level.

The funny thing is that when I went through some focus-group stuff for a corporation some 30 years ago, the recommended target was 10th. Well, not so funny, and not that surprising that the level has dropped.

[Irish_Dem]

46. The level dropped even lower I think in terms of entertainment.

I notice that lately the adult movies are all geared to a child level.
Cartoons, children's movie formats, etc.

And even every day, all instructions have to be you tube videos.
Apparently reading anything complicated or lengthy is too taxing.

College professors are shocked to learn college freshman are not used
to reading entire books.

I think IQ has dropped at least 10-15 points in last 100 years.

We live in a toxic soup, the brain damage is showing.

[Qutzupalotl]

53. I have to wonder how much of that is long COVID,

since it was widespread and sometimes asymptomatic. People's minds are mushy about what happened when, who was president in 2020, things like that. Some didn't realize Biden had dropped out. I think people have tuned out but could be in for a rude awakening.

[Irish_Dem]

61. I noticed it in the 80's.

I am trained to do IQ testing, all kinds of educational and psychological testing.
In the 80s I started seeing a drop in intellectual functioning.
All the learning disabilities, autism, dementia in older people.

It was noticeable.

But yes I think Covid had an impact in terms of brain function as well as social and psych aspects.
Some of my friends who work in pediatric psych say it will take a long time to catch up.

I think Americans have been exposed to daily toxins since the 1950s.
Maybe earlier. It certainly shows.

[Clouds Passing]

104. Thank you

[orange jar]

57. Using YouTube videos as tutorials is not an indicator of intelligence.

Some people are quicker to understand visual learning and prefer to follow along with what they're seeing. Purely reading instructions doesn't always help people visualize how to complete a task.

[Irish_Dem]

129. Yes it is an indicator of intellectual functioning changes.

This is not just a measure of learning style.

We have an entire population who are now only visual learners?
No one is able to comprehend written instructions?

College professors report incoming students are not capable or reading
and understanding an entire book. They have to break everything down into small segments.

Employers report their employees can no longer write coherently and must outsource written
assignments to "experts." Experts who appear able to read and write.

We have many American voters who claim to have no idea they elected a criminal psychopath
leader because they are not able to read or study the topic candidate selection.

And instead they readily believe the Chinese and Russian propaganda on various entertaining TV channels.

The American intellectual deficits now are so severe they put the country serious risk.

[BlueKota]

70. There was a comedian Chris Rock maybe

who was going off on the whole "who would you rather have a beer with?"nonsense

He said , "if I were on a plane where the pilot and the co pilot," passed out, and I had to pick someone to try and fly the plane, I am not gonna care whether I'd want to get beer with them. I'd want the smartest damn mother fucker on the plane."

I want someone smarter than me as President, not some unqualified idiot, whose likely to get us killed. I consider that just common sense.

[Irish_Dem]

130. People no longer appear to have common sense.

Back when I was young, adults took elections seriously.
Read the newspaper, listened to the news. Tried to be good citizens and make
prudent choices. Criminals would never be elected to high office.

They took their civic duty seriously.

[BlueKota]

134. It's definitely a different world now

[Irish_Dem]

145. Yes and it will continue to change until the US is unrecognizable.

[Ms. Toad]

76. There's using language that is geared toward that education level -

and then there is speaking to the lived experience of those with that education level.

You can discuss market economy in very simple language without too much trouble, and explain what good shape it is in. But when you don't recognize that the economy you are talking about isn't the economy that matters to those voters, it doesn't matter what grade level language you use to explain that they don't know what they are talking about.

[Irish_Dem]

127. It is difficult to talk to people who have experienced decades of propaganda and misinformation.

That requires an entirely different approach.

[radius777]

152. That's what Bill and Obama did so well.

Though both were Ivy leaguers, they were great at identifying and speaking to what mattered to regular people.

[2naSalit]

8. Democrats speak like college professors and lawyers, not like real people.

[TwilightZone]

9. "WTF is misogyny?"

I hope you're being facetious. It's not an uncommon term.

The reason to use misogyny over sexism is that the former is hatred, contempt, or prejudice aimed at women, while the latter is sex-based discrimination or stereotyping. Violence against women is an example of misogyny.

Misogyny much, much better describes what the GOP is all about.

[Nimble_Idea]

22. you really do believe that most people can spell or define that word huh?

just wow.....

now it is all starting to make sense.

[newdayneeded]

143. Yep, eye opening!

[niyad]

10. As a matter of curiosity, to which colleges and Ph.D. programs are you

referring? Frankly, I spoke proper English in high school, as did the majority of my classmates.

[Nimble_Idea]

25. o wurd?

can you convey that to the under 30 crowd next election? thanks.

[BOSSHOG]

12. Maybe I'm stupid

Lacking in the deep complexities of cosmic thought and analysis.

HOWEVER, and because of just enough paying attention, I’ve discovered it is very easy to know the difference between good and evil. I like good. I vote D. And I’m just a borderline grumpy old guy who spends too much time looking for his glasses. But when it comes to seeing what is right and what is wrong my eyesight is perfect.

[livetohike]

13. Trump said he "loves the poorly educated". We have

to give him credit for knowing his base.

[valleyrogue]

16. Blame the Democratic Party instead of the people who voted for Trump

because they are racist, sexist, xenophobic assholes. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Those of us who have been alive awhile know it is a waste of time to pander to people who are too far gone, who have been raised to be assholes.

I get tired of this "advice to Democrats" because it skirts the real problem, and that is with voters who are bigoted and will not change. It is like telling women to stay with an abuser because she can "fix" him.

There are people in the world who will not change and can't be fixed. If they ever learn they were wrong and sold a pack of lies by wealthy interests that will screw them over, they have to find out the hard way.

It is not Democrats' job to "fix" them.

[Skittles]

119. reminds me of the advice for women to avoid rape

they never seem to tell the guys not to rape

[sammythecat]

141. It is not Democrats job to ''fix'' them

but it should be our job to learn to ''deal'' with them. A dumb ass vote carries just as much weight as a genius vote.

[Skittles]

160. WE ALREADY DEAL WITH THEM

LOOK WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO AMERICA, we are a fucking BAD JOKE

[magicarpet]

17. Aspirations for higher knowledge....

Higher education, well read, way more informed about current events, and careful about sourcing information from reputable vendors.

[Hekate]

100. Several years ago I was gobsmacked to realize I was one of the hated "elites" ...

I grew up kinda poor, and my parents finally achieved a kind of blue collar middle class life about the time I graduated high school. Nothing “elite” about that, right?

But oh did they love books. My dad bought both the Encyclopedia Britannica and the Great Books, and my mom got all of us library cards very early.

Neither of them had had the money to finish college, but mom thought a college degree was the Holy Grail, and she pushed all 4 of us to go to public college, work our way through, and get that degree. Community college, public universities — what’s “elite” about that? It’s sure not Harvard or MIT or Yale.

In midlife I went back to graduate school to study a subject I loved, just because I loved it. Okay, that was privileged.

But about the time Bush-Cheney were ushered into Washington, I finally realized that the GOP was talking about the likes of me and my siblings when they went on and on about “elites.” Not the Bushes or Rockefellers or Bill Gates or Bezos — but me and mine, who loved education for its own sake as well as career prospects. We were the hated, despised, elites because we pursued higher education.

Like I said on election night — what a stupid, stupid country.

[proud patriot]

105. My dad bought me Encyclopidia Brintannica too

Also at home I was made to go look things up if I had a question .

the daily banter between us usually included my dad playing devils advocate with me
making me know my facts if I was presenting an argument and debating him.

It taught me to read about things so I could win a debate with him .

my grandfather was the same way with me .

I'm thankful for that , even though it was PITA when I was a kid

[sammythecat]

131. OK, I give up. What is PITA?

Google just gave me bread recipes. Is PITA some common term I should be familiar with?

[MichMan]

135. Pain In The Ass

[sammythecat]

142. Thanks n/t

[pat_k]

18. From an op ed in Seattle Times today

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/a-party-of-prigs-and-pontificators-suffers-a-humiliating-defeat/

Some points way off base. A few we should be taking to heart.

....
But these mistakes of calculation lived within three larger mistakes of worldview. First, the conviction among many liberals that things were pretty much fine, if not downright great, in Biden’s America — and that anyone who didn’t think that way was either a right-wing misinformer or a dupe. Second, the refusal to see how profoundly distasteful so much of modern liberalism has become to so much of America. Third, the insistence that the only appropriate form of politics when it comes to Trump is the politics of Resistance — capital R.

Regarding the first, I’ve lost track of the number of times liberal pundits have attempted to steer readers to arcane data from the St. Louis Federal Reserve to explain why Americans should stop freaking out over sharply higher prices of consumer goods or the rising financing costs on their homes and cars. Or insisted there was no migration crisis at the southern border. Or averred that Biden was sharp as a tack and that anyone who suggested otherwise was a jerk.

Yet when Americans saw and experienced things otherwise (as extensive survey data showed they did) the characteristic liberal response was to treat the complaints not only as baseless but also as immoral. The effect was to insult voters while leaving Democrats blind to the legitimacy of the issues. You could see this every time Harris mentioned, in answer to questions about the border, that she had prosecuted transnational criminal gangs: Her answer was nonresponsive to the central complaint that there was a migration crisis straining hundreds of communities, irrespective of whether the migrants committed crimes.

The dismissiveness with which liberals treated these concerns was part of something else: dismissiveness toward the moral objections many Americans have to various progressive causes. Concerned about gender transitions for children or about biological males playing on girls’ sports teams? You’re a transphobe. Dismayed by tedious, mandatory and frequently counterproductive diversity, equity and inclusion seminars that treat white skin as almost inherently problematic? You’re racist. Irritated by new terminology that is supposed to be more inclusive but feels as if it’s borrowing a page from “1984”? That’s doubleplusungood.

The Democratic Party at its best stands for fairness and freedom. But the politics of today’s left is heavy on social engineering according to group identity. It also, increasingly, stands for the forcible imposition of bizarre cultural norms on hundreds of millions of Americans who want to live and let live but don’t like being told how to speak or what to think. Too many liberals forgot this, which explains how a figure like Trump, with his boisterous and transgressive disdain for liberal pieties, could be reelected to the presidency.

....

Today, the Democrats have become the party of priggishness, pontification and pomposity. It may make them feel righteous, but how’s that ever going to be a winning electoral look?

I voted reluctantly for Harris because of my fears for what a second Trump term might bring — in Ukraine, our trade policy, civic life, the moral health of the conservative movement writ large. Right now, my larger fear is that liberals lack the introspection to see where they went wrong, the discipline to do better next time and the humility to change.

[orange jar]

37. Could not agree more with the op-ed.

I will say that my support for Harris wasn't begrudging or anything like that, but everything else is 100% spot on.

[mountain grammy]

54. The humility to change

I’m working on that. Already blew it today but I’ll get better.

[peachpit24]

60. Maybe

Democrats would have won if we nominated a felon and a rapist. Maybe we should have talked about people eating dogs and cats. A president talks to leaders of other countries. He has to be intelligent and not talk about air fields during the civil war.They will use Trump and he will think they will send him loveletters. Give me a break. We should dumb down to get votes.

[Ferrets are Cool]

67. I didn't see anything there worth praising.

Sounds like he hates Democrats.

[niyad]

77. Just looked at his bio. .conservative. And, "prigs and pontificators"

would seem to confirm your last sentence.

[pat_k]

90. Of course he is. He's a Republican for Harris.

But I nevertheless I think that we have a problem with connecting to a whole lot of Americans -- and that we do a lousy job of listening to others as human beings with human concerns -- assumptions about bad motives kick in when a deeper conversation might be possible. As long as we return their assumptions and hate about us with assumptions and hate of our own, will alienate more people who actually agree with us on a lot.

Monica Guzman
I never thought of it that way: How to have fearlessly curious conversations in dangerously divided times

[Clouds Passing]

107. As they, Rs, do a lousy job of listening to us as human beings with human concerns.

We speak a different language Rs and Ds. It would do us a world of good to learn each others language so we can communicate effectively with each other. This is making me cry now 😢

[pat_k]

110. Braver Angels workshops. I highly recommend.

https://braverangels.org/

The conservatives who participate are self-selected folks who are willing to try to engage, so perhaps aren't typical MAGA folk. But I am learning a lot about differences in world views and language that is "triggering" both ways. And also that there are common values we can build from.

[Skittles]

98. once again

tell me EXACTLY what repukes will do to help with the price of groceries - when have they EVER done anything that helps WE THE PEOPLE???

[pat_k]

108. Nothing

And with Democrats things get better. Always (link below).

But we haven't done a good job of getting through the noise demonizing us to convey that fundamental truth -- that things get better with Democrats in power. Always. I think that some of the demonization sticks because it has small kernels of truth in it. Frankly, I find some of "us" self-righteous in a ways that are unhelpful. And I am very disturbed by the degree to which we are returning their hate of "us" with our hate of "them."

What I've learned in participating in Braver Angels workshops is that knee jerk assumptions led to dismissing people and their concerns in a way that completely alienates them further -- and leaves "us" stressed and angry. Just as "they" are stressed and angry. Getting passed the assumptions and actually talking and connecting is possible. And I've learned that many of "them" have rejected our party simply because they feel so hated and rejected by "us."

I will never forget a Christian woman whose stances turned out to be actually quite progressive. At one point in the workshop, she started crying as it became clear to her that "we" were completely accepting of her Christian beliefs. She had believed that we hated her as a Christian. Period. She had been incredibly afraid to participate in the workshop because of it. Or even to admit she was a Christian.

It broke my heart. It was a shock. The notion that we, who believe ourselves to be inclusive, had failed to convey our acceptance of faiths of ALL types. Yes, we simultaneously believe that imposing religious beliefs in law is anti-American. A sentiment she agreed with. But far too many of us bad mouth Christianity as an evil monolith. It has become so commonplace that the notion that "we" hate all Christians has become part of our "brand" in a way that alienates people who would be natural allies. It is incredibly damaging. Somehow we need to detangle our opposition to Christian Nationalism from our acceptance of Christianity -- and every other faith or non-faith out there.

That's just one example.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I think that we, as a party, do need to do a little soul searching and listening and asking genuinely curious questions when faced with one of "them."

link:

|

[Skittles]

111. when the GOP gets what they want

trashing ACA, Social Security, Medicare, national abortion ban - is THAT when fucking idiots will start to get it?

[pat_k]

115. I sure hope the "bottom" isn't that low.

Sadly, I am clueless on what would trigger a reversal. Perhaps it has to get that bad. '
'
Just to speculate for a minute (knowing that I actually have no clue). My gut says Social Security has become a third rail and it won't be messed with in the near future. Medicare is more vulnerable to erosion without triggering a strong reaction from the polity. And ACA? Crap, I don't know how far they can go undoing that before backlash kicks in. They didn't get far in previous tries.

Frankly, I'm more concerned about the destruction of the executive branch as a functioning entity in our executive-legislative-judicial balancing act. Laws don't matter when execution is undermined. I think the damage to fear most isn't the overt damage of terrible legislation. I think political will kicks in to curb the worst of that. But the destruction of the mechanisms by which our laws are executed and enforced? That is not immediately apparent and is much harder to expose in a way that triggers public opposition.

We are in a vicious downward cycle with with so many forces at work untangling is beyond me. I just pick at the threads that strike me as important. And through it all, do my best to hang onto my basic faith in the power of engaged, caring citizens; a belief that we will, some way, some how, kick off a a virtuous upward cycle. I hope it happens in my lifetime, but that's only two or three decades more... but I live in hope. Hope mobilizes. Hopelessness immobilizes. I choose hope.

[Skittles]

116. THEY LITERALLY SPELLED IT OUT IN PROJECT 2025

they couldn't be any more clearer about their fascism

the first thing they will do about Medicare is make Medicare "Advantage" THE DEFAULT for people turning 65 - that's because the entire point of that con is to get rid of Medicare but it's not happening fast enough for them - when the overwhelming majority are on MA, it will ALL be turned over to private insurance and you know what will happen then

[pat_k]

117. Of course.

Last edited Fri Nov 8, 2024, 03:35 AM - Edit history (1)

My "gut" (clueless as I am) said Medicare is more vulnerable that Social Security. Also based on no real knowledge, I think that many who voted for DT 1) have no actual idea what project 2025 is, and/or 2) took him at his word that it wasn't his playbook.

And on the "they're determined to usher in a fascist regime" front, few people were out there talking about the fact that J.D. Vance, Don Jr., Carlson, and Bannon all blurbed Posobiec's Unhuman's, the far right dystopian view of fascism saving the world. I don't think anything could be clearer than glorifying Pinochet and Franco, but there was pretty much not a word about it. Had there been, perhaps it wouldn't have gotten through, but who knows.

It is not my intent to argue that we aren't in for some horrific reversals of progress that has been hard won over my 65 years on the planet. Or that millions too many people voted against their own interests.

I'm not sure what I'm arguing. I guess the only thing I'm pushing back on is the notion that "they" are a monolith.

I could be out of my gourd, but, based on no real data that I can put my hands on, I think that at least 10% of the people who voted for Trump are reachable and that we need to figure out ways to reach them.

My general impression, garnered over the last 40 years, is that about a quarter of the nation is absolutely beyond reach and would be happy to return to our "roots" as a slave republic. I think there's another 10% or 15% that could conceivably be reachable, but I just have no idea how.

Anyway, I guess my point is that the "them" I am thinking when I consider how we might better connect is always the reachable 10% I believe are out there.

We began as a slave republic and in the 1960's when the democratic party chose to move toward racial reconciliation republicans could have joined us. Instead, they pursued the "Southern Strategy" putting the pursuit of power over principle. They laid first steps of this terrible path we are on.

[Skittles]

118. I'm not sure if they are reachable

look how many so-called "Christians" voted for a racist, sexist bully - that tells me their "faith" is pure bullshit - if they can be that easily conned via fear and ignorance (OMG! TRANS PEOPLEI) I think it honestly means the American experiment is over

[pat_k]

121. You may be right.

And I know that.

I just guess the fact that I've reached a couple gives me hope there are more out there and that we may need to take in the notion that we can be a bit self-righteous and hateful in ways that aren't helpful, and that even may be damaging our own psyche as we provided kernels of truth that get exploited by those whose full time job is to demonize us.

[Skittles]

123. why is it always US who has to amend their behavior

repukes lie as easily as they breathe and are NEVER held accountable for the damage they cause

look how many people died of covid because of Trump's dismal "leadership"

WTF

[pat_k]

148. Because we want to find ways to move forward.

It requires more thoughtful creativity than digging your heels in. Sending people into immobilizing despair or rage or anger is easier. Sparking hope and connection and building a shared vision that makes progress possible is hard.

[dalton99a]

137. Spot on.

[SKKY]

20. That's an excellent observation. And to highlight your point, that very thing is what made Clinton...

...such an effective communicator. He was brilliant but spoke to people like he was taking their order. Mayor Pete has some of that, but until African-American men get over their issues with a gay man, he doesn't stand a chance.

[marybourg]

36. We can't all have the accomplishments of Bill Clinton. He was,

dare I say it? Sui generis 😀

[hadEnuf]

27. The right wing owns all the microphones.

The entire media is either pro Republican, Republican lite or busy entertaining some MAGA nutcase in order to look "fair".

Damn, this isn't rocket science!

Until we counter this, the country will be continue to be led off a cliff by these maniacs.

[Sparkly]

31. College professors and lawyers are people, too.

And there are other spokespeople telling the truth quite plainly both on MSNBC and other networks, not to mention radio and the internet.

No excuses for ignorance.

[BannonsLiver]

81. They're already voting for Democrats.

[cachukis]

32. There lies the rub. He is right as are all the responses.

In order to implement one's ideas you need support. 84.9% of Americans have an IQ of 115 or less.
That is not an issue of stupidity, but one of depth.
Vocabulary is the most important asset. Lack of one is problematic.
We work to improve people's empathy.
If we talk over their heads they are resentful.
Got to get them in the door if we want them to hear our story.
Lincoln spoke monosyllabically.
Got to start somewhere.

[Dem4life1234]

34. Nobody ever tells those dumbasses...

Nobody ever tells those MAGAt dumbasses to stop being hateful, learn to accept others. They need to be held accountable for their actions.

[B.See]

47. Nor do they

spend a lot of time self-flagellating and wondering where they went wrong. Instead, they double down on what they believe and stand for... no matter how ODIOUS.

[Hekate]

35. We are real people, thank you. In a moment of synchronicity though, our grandson ...

…just had a second year college English paper flunked because the program the teacher uses to check for AI cheating flagged it. Seems there’s a certain level of vocabulary that earns, not praise, but suspicion.

My husband, who used to teach computer information systems there before he retired 12 years ago, was all for going to the Dean and on up the ladder. But the young man said he was just going to drop the class and take it again with another teacher. He said, and I quote, “I don’t want to exacerbate the situation.”

Oh.

Of course, Trump’s plan to destroy the Dept. of Education is really going to help the average FOX viewer, isn’t it?

[Nimble_Idea]

42. bless your heart

for wanting to help the average fox viewer. (sarcasm, for clarity)

[Sparkly]

45. I love that.

“I don’t want to exacerbate the situation.”

(My own little 'Sparkly Junior' was once assigned a one-page story to write. She wrote five pages, so the teacher deducted points.)

[BlueKota]

65. I had a high-school English teacher

accuse me of just trying to show off my vocabulary when I used the word siblings in an essay. He said most people wouldn't even know what that means. I wanted to say, "that's what dictionaries are for," but didn't want to get in trouble. He told me to correct it to brothers and sisters or he'd lower my grade.

[niyad]

75. It used to take my teachers in junior and senior high a bit of time to

understand that the papers I was turning in were in my words, not copied from books, etc. I made them nervous.

[pdxflyboy]

40. Yes, I agree. Also.....

They should have used the term "dictatorship" instead of autocracy. Most people in the US have little understanding of the term, "autocracy". It's a political wonk's term that most have no idea of the meaning, and consequences.

[Solly Mack]

43. I am a real person. Didn't realize I needed a CAPTCHA when speaking. Who knew?

[white_wolf]

55. I've noticed they like simple soloutions

I have a (former) friend who went deep down the MAGA and tradwife pipelines. I was over at her house because she lives with someone I'm still friends with and she was listening to, I think, Ben Shaipro. He was going on and on about how the Roman Empire fell due to a lack of morality and I was just kind of shocked that he thinks such a simple thing could account for something as complex as the fall of a civilization. And even if we granted his premise, we'd still have the complex task of defining morality because I guarantee Ben's notion of morality is very different from the average Roman's circa 500.

[CousinIT]

58. Yep. Dems need to dumb everything down to 1st grade level to match the

Illiteracy and ignorance of MAGAts, rural hillbillies, and trailer trash.

[Fish700]

62. Only if they want to win elections it seems.

I would love to count on the average American being a kind, generous soul who believes in the principals our nation was founded on and is appalled by stupid bullies but it appears I cant.

[Prairie Gates]

63. ***Raises hand tentatively ****

Uh...college professors and lawyers are...real people...

[brush]

64. So many seem to forget that VP Harris was dropped into an...

entirely unprecedented situation with only three weeks and a few days to campaign. Trump was campaign for two whole years trying to stay out of jail.

I think she ran a near-perfect campaign with the time she had. Give her and her campaign two years like trump had and I'd be willing to bet results would be much different.

[live love laugh]

91. I don't see the OP as being critical of Harris. It's about messaging in general.

[brush]

109. Still, messaging over a two-year campaign vs a three month and a few days campaign...

makes a huge difference. The poster doesn't seem to recognize that much more messaging can be done in a two-year campaign so his we'll continue to lose because of messaging doesn't doesn't seem apt and the pessimism is unwanted IMO.

[Ferrets are Cool]

66. I'm not dumbing myself down for some magat.

Those who want to learn will. Those that don't will be magats.

[ecstatic]

72. I saw something about trump speaking at a 4th grade level

I'm sure that's part of it.

[Skittles]

112. HE SPEAKS ABSOLUTE GIBBERISH

WTF!!!!!!!

[ecstatic]

73. Also: How did President Obama succeed? I don't think he dumbed things down

a lot. His coalition consisted of smart and dumb people.

[choie]

74. If you don't know what cis gendered is

look it up and do some research.

[live love laugh]

89. Which goes to his point.... dropouts are not going to look anything up.

[Skittles]

124. and we need to be like that to appeal to them?

UGH

[live love laugh]

128. I'm appalled at the state of de-education but it's "a thing."

Schools stopped teaching cursive writing years ago. They don’t even teach phonetics or how to tell time on analog clocks.

It’s alarming. It’s also why so many don’t know about civics or critical thinking.

And now as Republicans are cashing in on the ignorance they created, they are looking to make them even dumber by banning books and defunding schools.

We can ignore the ignorance and think they should somehow catch up intellectually or we can acknowledge the problem and try to be more inclusive.

[Skittles]

79. HELLO

I CONSIDER MYSELF "REAL PEOPLE" AND I KNOW WHAT FUCKING MISOGYNY IS

the problems isn't that that they don't know what misogyny IS - the problem is THEY FUCKING SUPPORT MISOGYNY

[niyad]

84. EXACTLY!!!

[Clouds Passing]

144. Second that

[ancianita]

83. No. Democrats speak like normal people with normal educations. The 'real' people you refer to are the

"oh I love the undereducated" people. All the Democrats you see on MSNBC just happen to be smarter than the Republicans you see on Fox.

Both the 'real people' and their media feeds (or feed troughs) are the dupes of oligarchs, whose corporate media want them to stay that way. They're not 'real people.' -- they're people told that what lawyers and professors know is too damn hard for them, when it's fuckin' not. Media have their markets -- readers of both paper and digital media; and tv audiences that only have their attention directed onscreen, which promotes unthinking, lazy thinkers easily confused by what a reading person sees as common knowledge -- "real people" are taught to read and write, but most of them don't do it because they don't value it.

No country deserves to be prosperous on the backs of people fooled into thinking that education, reading, and thinking aren't important, just experience. And what's going to happen is going to happen TO them, not FOR them.

The day before the election trump says we're a "failing country full of crime and Democratic scummy enemy within people." The day after the election he says we're a "pot of gold."
Who do you think believes him? Real people? As Obama would say, "Come ON."

No. It's not ANOTHER reason we lost. You oversimplify -- like the "real people" that you think actually knew who/what they were voting for.

[oldsoldierfadingfast]

87. I get your point...

as I live in a rural area of a large county with low population. However, it has one of best school systems in the state. when the students who do not drop out graduate, many go on for further education. Once educated they go where the jobs are. The ones who stay take whatever job they can get, and these are mostly low paying.
Our people are for the most part dependable, honest and very hard workers. (Yes, we do have a number of exceptions as a matter of course.) After a day at work, many go home to feed their live stock, take care of their crops, sow. cut, get up hay in prep. for winter, and help out their neighbors and friends.
At the end of the day, they would like to unwind so where do they go for that - low calorie TV as sit-coms and Fox Entertainment.
The radio stations are am - owned by Republicans, which are listened to on the way to and from work and for some, at work.
Newspapers are delivered to the post-office and are not news by the time we get them.
Another reason - if the Repub. party was good enough for daddy and granddaddy; well then. it is good enough for me.
The do not know that the party began to change back in the late 60s and early 70s with the Koch bros. and some others. There was the Porter Report which sounds good until you take it apart piece by piece. Then came corporations and money took over.
I grew up in an uneducated household (Democratic, thankfully) and once I left, never went back except to visit. My mother made sure that I would not get stuck in the bright red area where we lived.
Almost all of the people who left for further education or other reasons never went back either. I have lost many 'used-to-be' friends from there and don't go back for reunions any more as the more enlightened ones are too old now to travel, although I do live close enough to go.
Talking to some of these people about politics is like someone from NASA telling me how to calculate an orbit!
That said, how do we reach the people who need our message but do not read, don't know the 50cent words, don't have the time or interest to learn and are stuck in one mind-set?

[KentuckyWoman]

94. Well that hit a nerve

I'm over 80. I'm in there with you that I have no idea what words I'm allowed to use anymore. The youngers look at me sideways half the time. I get flamed on DU on occasion because of verbiage. A post that gets quickly misinterpreted and it goes sideways fast. I take it all as a sign I'm old and shuffle it off.

Gender or race or ethnic background or whatever - I TRY to get the words right because I care about people's dignity - but the verbiage is changing faster than I can keep up.

So you won't finding me jumping at you for "real people". I get what you meant - even if poor stated.

[Skittles]

96. I never thought I'd see the day where DUers defined what REAL PEOPLE are

it is disgusting

how about a government that recognizes ALL of us - is that REALLY too much to ask?

[KentuckyWoman]

150. No it is not too much

Yes it was a badly worded statement. The whole rest of the post was lost because of it.

It has happened to me too. I feel for the OP. Hopefully they take another run at it.

[NoMoreRepugs]

95. I've read that 54% of Americans read below a 6th grade level.

I’m AMAZED it’s that high. “The school nurse is performing sex change operations or they’re eating the pets” - nuff’ said.

[ECL213]

97. We've got to remember...

These are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know… morons.

[Abolishinist]

99. I never get tired of this. Watching Gene Wilder's eye movements, just classic.

And the buildup and timing, Wilder knowing that Cleavon Little had not a clue as to what was coming.

[Hekate]

101. Best ever. I will love that scene forever. 💕💕💕 Just what I needed tonight.

[proud patriot]

103. Interesting

I hadn't thought of that .

[Lulu KC]

106. I don't think those shows are a fair comparison with Fox

Fox could be compared with the vocabulary used on local television news.

[brush]

113. Why all the pessimism? We lost a three month and a few days campaign vs a two-year one.

Maybe acknowledge that, and we beat trump four years ago when he was an incumbent and Joe had as much time do figure out messaging as he did.

IMO the Dem bashing pessimism is inappropriate.

[lindysalsagal]

114. TV is geared for an 11 year old vocabulary

MSnBC well exceeds that, but I believe it should.

[Demovictory9]

120. Immigrants who voted for trump, said the like how he speaks frankly

An article printed after election

[GreenWave]

126. I thought about "narcissist" vs. "egomaniac"

Stochastic terrorism?
schadenfreude ?
It goes right over many heads and could possibly alienate.

[oldreliable_one]

133. Agreed 100%

You can't blast the airwaves with buzzwords and graphs and stats from some fancy university that most people could never hope to afford in their lifetime. You only reinforce the out of touch wealthy elite message that the Democratic Party has been smeared with over the decades. You need to meet people where they are.

And stop basing entire campaigns on identity politics. You have to appeal to EVERYONE. Americans are not majority blue-haired vegan non binary feminists. You can only ignore the hetero male vote for so long until they flock to the opposition out of frustration and anger because at least Trump and his people talk to them, not at them.

[ck4829]

136. Trump ran on identity politics though. He ran on "revenge" against people who held *him* accountable

[Lulu KC]

158. So Tim Walz didn't quite do it for you, right?

Is that what I'm hearing you say?

[ck4829]

138. Counterpoint. Confusing words are not why we lost. What is "Woke"? What is "Communism"? What is "Transgender"?

Republicans struggle to define those words, but they didn't lose.

I guarantee you, if you stand in front of WalMart and ask 100 people to define the word "woke", you will get 100 very different definitions.

You say "cis-gender", but I'm pretty sure I've heard the word "transgender" by Republicans these past few months more times than by anyone else these past 5 years.

But, you know, get your scapegoats and throw the people you don't like to the wolves.

[tulipsandroses]

157. Don't forget Critical Race Theory and DEI

I'd be a rich woman if I was paid $1 every time those words were uttered by republicans.

[SupportSanity]

146. Ivy League Grads on Trump's Team.

I noticed all along, that when this Trump person or that Trump person was announced, they were almost always had Ivy League credentials.

All these Ivy League grads on Trump's team have made me very curious.

Why Trump? And how did they get recruited?

I still think it's a long range Russian operation. I think the Russian operation started a very long time ago. But that's my theory.

Also, another thing comes to mind.

Political speechwriter Jeff Nussbaum said that when asking experts in the field he’ll say: “Now explain this to me like I’m in eighth grade”.
And I don’t choose that grade at random. That’s generally the average American’s language processing ability.
----- Speechwriter Jeff Nussbaum on “The 1A” podcast from Feb 23, 2023: Ask a political speech writer

[Hotler]

147. maybe if we tried playing nice, reach across the isle once and awhile. maybe buy them lunch or something.

Have we tried that approach yet?

[gulliver]

149. Great post!

Yep, you hit the nail on the head here!

This is just one aspect of our being lost in "conversation." These IQ-signaling and virtue-signaling words need to be used very, very sparingly. Using them frequently is a sign of laziness at best. Even the people who understand them feel a bit nauseous.

[SoCalDavidS]

151. Jimmy Kimmel

He occasionally does questions on the street, and it's eye opening some of the responses he receives.

[Quiet Em]

153. regarding "real people"

We found, as you are now finding, that the new truth-building process does not require facts or the underpinning of agreed values. We were confronted – as you are being confronted – by a toxic vocabulary: “elite”, “experts”, “real people” and “alienated intellectuals”. The elite, with experts as mouthpieces of that oppressive elite, were portrayed as people detached from society, willing to suppress the needs, choices and beliefs of “real people”.

Events moved quickly. Those who believed experts should be excluded from the truth-building process, and that the facts were too boring to be bothered with, became the most active participants in a reconstruction of their own truth. The magic word was “respect”, with the demand that the elite, since they were so out of touch, should respect real people’s truth.

We have learned a lesson, but too late. The question “Are we out of touch?” leads to “them and us”, which then morphs into “either us or them”. As we found in Turkey, the masses choose “them”. From that point you find yourself, like me, labelled “not real people” in your own country. Europe and the US will soon learn that being “elite” is not about social class or education: it is about obedience to one version of the truth.

https://ecetemelkuran.net/truth-is-a-lost-game-in-turkey-dont-let-the-same-thing-happen-to-you/