Add my "what went wrong" take to the pile

[EarlG]

Although you might find this one a bit different than the others.

In my opinion, this election established that the truth is now fully optional, and the voting public is mostly trapped inside algorithmic information bubbles. They don't know who to trust, so they find news sources that align with their existing prejudices, and then believe those sources to the exclusion of everything else.

In the years leading up to this past election, millions of online Americans were algorithmically microtargeted and bombarded with messages that were directly attuned to their specific fears. This messaging could be subtle or highly explicit -- whatever the algorithms understood would work best. Much of the time this manifested as fear of "the other" (immigrants, trans people, etc.) People absorbed the message that Donald Trump would "solve" these "problems," and they tuned out any information that made them uncomfortable with re-electing him.

There's a reason why some people who voted for Trump said they thought he would preserve a woman's right to choose. There's a reason why many of the same people who voted for a constitutional right to an abortion in Florida immediately turned around and voted for the person who overturned Roe vs. Wade. There's also a reason why Elon Musk bought Twitter and doesn't care how much money he lost.

The polls shifted around some when we introduced a new candidate, because it temporarily broke through the information bubbles. But overall, trends have been flat for a long time -- leading up to this election, people's opinions were already baked in, and that is because people no longer expose themselves to information that might counter what they already believe.

We're all sitting around talking about which demographic group did what and whether or not some change would have made a difference over the past few months, but I think that's missing the point to a large degree. Traditional campaigning is still important, but this election may show that it is no longer enough, on its own, to overcome misinformation peddled on an industrial scale.

We do not currently, and we likely will not ever, have the infrastructure to combat this.

So now what? I'm not sure. But it seems that what does break through people's information bubbles is some kind of massive change, a big shocking event -- like the election that just happened, for example. It may give us a chance to reset the playing field.

Even though he was elected, Trump is still not popular, and depending on what happens next, it's possible that buyer's remorse might set in for quite a lot of people (I base this on what happened in Britain after people realized what voting for Brexit actually meant). If that happens, we need to help hammer home that message and bake it in before the mid-terms.

[JoseBalow]

1. Sometimes you gotta hit rock bottom

before you get better.

[IrishAfricanAmerican]

3. Sometimes you lose the patient.

[JoseBalow]

4. Quite true

recovery is not guaranteed

[Initech]

47. This felt more like a death knell than rock bottom.

When I saw the news that Fuckface was going to be president again, I honestly haven't felt this way since 9/11. I was legit sick to my stomach and I can't believe it. This has got to be a wake up call to this country that fascism is terrible. How do you recover from this? It's going to take time for sure.

[gerryatwork]

101. Like Nazi Germany

No thanks, but it’s not like we have a choice

[NewHendoLib]

2. Thank you. FWIW, I completely agree.

It has now been hammered home how - and that - propaganda works.

[dgauss]

5. Agree completely. Here is Rove(?) spelling it out explicitly 20 years ago.

Things will just get worse until we figure out how to combat this:

In October 2004, journalist Ron Suskind wrote a first-person article for The New York Times about the presidency of 43rd U.S. President George W. Bush, in which he included a grandiose quote from someone described only as a "senior adviser to Bush."

Many have assumed the comment was made by Bush political adviser Karl Rove, though there isn't any publicly available evidence to that effect. Here is what Suskind wrote:

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/karl-rove-empire/

[Lonestarblue]

64. Rove was also author Redmap, the Republican Party plan to use gerrymandering for permanent control of government.

They have been remarkably successful at first targeting local elections and moving on to state legislatures. Flipping a very few states now from blue to red (like Pennsylvania) gives them the opportunity to gerrymander as many Democrats and minorities into the fewest possible districts, leaving all the rest for Republicans and giving them a significant advantage in the House.

If we do not find a way to tackle gerrymandering, we will be the permanent losers, though it appears that we will gave no opportunities for four years unless we choose a state to flip to blue and start investing in local elections.

[GoreWon2000]

79. Let's not forget Rove's involment in Bush 2000 election theft.

[Attilatheblond]

137. And John Roberts, Kavanaugh, Amy Coney Barrett too

Amazing how well aiding the effort to stop a recount pays off so well for careers.

[BComplex]

106. Well...that was scary as hell.

But I saw what KKKarl Rove was capable of so many times, that I believe it.

[orange jar]

6. I definitely agree that curated spaces and echo chambers have contributed to her loss.

Now, whether it's just RW echo chambers that are to blame…… well, I'm not completely sure. Blame will be going around in all different directions for a long time.

I don't know how we break these propaganda bubbles. We tell these people to just "learn to hear opposing views," and while that should almost certainly be the first step, it falls on deaf ears to most of these people. They truly do not care to. Social media algorithms are literally designed to feed gullible people rage bait to keep them on their platforms, and this is a well-known fact — yet, people will tell themselves "not me, tho" while continuing to fall for propaganda that fits their worldview. This is the greatest danger to liberalism and, by extension, the Democratic party.

There is no such thing as universal truths or facts. If anything, you'll see completely dumbass statements like "reality is what you make it" get praised and boosted. Literally normalizing "DIY research" and echo chambers. Or, if people aren't stuck in extremely partisan echo chambers, every single thing is seen as a joke or meme. Everything's ironic. So, even when something serious is happening, nobody takes it seriously because it is distilled into nonsensical memes and humor. Hell, sometimes, forcing every single situation or event to become a viral meme or joke creates propaganda on its own — see: Trump. Do you know how many people I've seen who like Trump just because they think he's funny or a good source for content?

I know this turned into a bit of a rant, but all of this is genuinely maddening.

[Native]

18. & it's reached almost insurmountable proportions. According to canvassers, the misinformation this election was insane,

both in quantity and in the content of the messages. Canvassers said they'd never experienced anything like it before.

[orange jar]

24. Oh, I wouldn't doubt it.

Online propaganda has been set into high gear since Trump's original run for presidency in 2015-2016. It will continue to intensify over time as AI improves, algorithms are tweaked, polarization is deepened, and general distrust in institutions, facts, "others," etc grow.

[WarGamer]

7. Agreed... just to add

Get back to being DEMOCRATS.

I think the Party has shifted to the RIGHT over the last ten years, alienating many former Democrats.

[Native]

29. I don't know about that. A lot of people are saying it's pandered too much to the left/progressives of the party.

And Trump's they/them ad was supposedly very effective. I know when I rec'd that mailer, I was like, oh shit, this is going to be effective. His campaign spent more than $19 million on two tv ads alone that aired like 55,000 times, starting in October. And one of his Super PACS spent more than a million bucks at the same time on a similar ad that aired about 6,000 times. Targeting men, the ads ran in all the battleground states during football games (NFL and college).

Supposedly, if we want to represent more people and get more votes, we are going to have to move more to the center. It used to be that being left meant you were a tree hugger, etc... the left is much more progressive now.

I don't know enough politically to weigh in on that, it's just what some dem reps and others have said. Even Ritchie Torres.

[mnhtnbb]

57. This old white lady watches football

And I saw those ads targeting men a gazillion times. They were terrible and I knew they'd hit home with a lot of their targets.

[TBF]

89. I would like examples of how the Dem party has pandered to the left -

all I see is this party moving right. The only example I can think of is that people were worried about some of the Muslim voters in Michigan, and it might have influenced the VP choice. But that's literally all I can think of.

[Native]

93. sure, i cant remember them all, but one for sure that was mentioned was the transgender surgeries for inmates.

yes, we mentioned that it was initiated under Trump, but saying she'd continue to follow the law was viewed as vague and avoiding answering whether she was for or against it, and there were a couple other examples like that where they explained that we typically don't take a stance on things like that for fear of alienating members of our party.

[Jack Valentino]

134. She REALLY should have hit-back on the transgender "prison surgery" thing,

even to run ads that say, "if you don't like that, ok, but it was TRUMP POLICY!"


We got hammered with those ads in Michigan. I was worried about it.
I think they turned out to be the "Willie Horton" ads of this campaign.

[summer_in_TX]

114. But it's not true.

Bill Clinton took the party to the Center Right on domestic issues. Obama was mostly Centrist. But Biden has been Center Left on most of domestic policy. The single most pro-union, pro-worker president in 50 years or more.

Biden brought manufacturing back to America. Clinton was right on board with globalism, and I don't recall Obama making a concerted effort to bring it back although he and Biden did go to bat for American automakers.

[WarGamer]

118. then explain blue collar America leaving the Party?

DEMS now have more billionaire donors than the GOP...

Exit polls... those making 100k+ a year went to Harris

Those making 200k+ per year went to Harris.

Trump won working/middle class earners.

DEMS outspent Trump by 50%

Trump campaigned in a McDonalds apron and a garbage man vest....

WE KNOW it's ridiculous... but he went after those folks

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/exit-polls

[summer_in_TX]

119. When Biden made sure they got COVID relief funds, he should have put his name on it like Trump did.

Maybe then they'd have realized what he was doing for them.

We need to take assertive credit. But Biden's basic humility didn't permit him to do that.

Both parties have lots of wealthy donors. I was grateful we could organize and advertise because our donors prefer democracy over autocracy.

[Jack Bone]

121. Trump didn't go after these folks... he had them

He’s had them since he vowed to “Lock Her Up!”… this segment hated Hillary since the 90s…my neighbors,family, coworkers are these people…Rush and the GOP (Gingrich, Ralph Reed, Rove) made her outlaw #1.… Trump killed that elusive great white whale and they love(d) him for it….he didn’t have to go after them….with Russian misinformation and mainstream media’s abandonment of the facts, all he had to do was the easy part….Hold on to them…he did that in flying colors!

[muriel_volestrangler]

123. Those differences in voting by income are all small. It's not a big factor.

Look at the categories in the polls where there are larger differences than in any income bracket (which was Trump 53 Harris 45 for 30-50k):

Men: Trump 55 Harris 42
White: Trump 54 Harris 41
Age 50-64: Trump 56 Harris 43
Never attended college: Trump 63 Harris 35
Associate's degree: Trump 56 Harris 41
Protestant: Trump 63 Harris 36
Evangelical: Trump 82 Harris 17
Catholic: Trump 58 Harris 40
Married: Trump 56 Harris 43

All the categories above show more variation than income.

"Blue collar" votes have been gettable by Republicans for decades. Reagan, for instance.

[deurbano]

145. I think the income voting differences are mostly related to education (which trends to result in higher income),

not income brackets.

[Tadpole Raisin]

127. Saw an article this morning (sorry don't remember where) that said

53% of white women voted for TSF, which was not what they expected.

Adding to that, the Latino and black men…

What a betrayal!!

[Doodley]

8. The signs were there. Biden has been a great president. The economy is doing great. Yet most people don't agree.

That was before Kamala even became our candidate. The propaganda from the Trump side, the continued barrage of outright lies, has not been taken on. Trump says everything was the greatest when he was president. Now it's a shithole. He says he gave up everything and took a bullet for America. Too many people believed it. The only way to overcome it is to find ways to turn that strength of deception into a weakness.

[orange jar]

11. Do you think Trump's assassination attempt(s) ultimately helped him?

I know it supposedly didn't move the needle much according to polls at the time, but this is a factor I've been wrestling with since his win became inevitable. It obviously is not the Democrats' fault that it happened, but I wonder if it caused some voters to sympathize with Trump.

[Doodley]

15. I'm sure it did. It was an important part of their campaign. Our household of two received a dozen direct mail

pieces from the Trump campaign, most with the picture of blood running down Trump's face. One said "They shot him!" It fed into the idea that he is a patriot, he is brave, and God saved him to save America.

[Butterflylady]

25. And people bought into it......

I never bought it.

[MustLoveBeagles]

48. I remember a Dem Operative at the time

Saying the shooting won trump the election.

[Jack Valentino]

136. If a supernatural being saved Trump from death, it was LUCIFER and not God.

God does not normally save people from the consequences of their own actions.
He can forgive them, but he won't make the problems they brought upon themselves go away.

(speaking theologically here-- although I don't necessarily believe in it anymore, I was raised on it)

It's clear who would benefit more from the continued existence of Trump,
and it sure as hell ain't GOD.

Stupid rubes just put the anti-christ into office.

[Rebl2]

32. No!

I just think Dems stayed home.

[ForgedCrank]

45. It didn't

help him as much as it hurt us, at least in my opinion.
A whole lot of people added that to their list of caricature traits that they use to define others. In this case, Democrats or anti-Trump in general. It sucks when some nut does something like that, but the response is predictable. It doesn't even matter if the assassin was has been voting Republican for the last 30 years, he tried to kill Trump, therefore, he must be anti-Trump. Decent and normal people don't want to align with that in any way, and we got that albatross hung around our necks.
So while I don't think it was a huge factor, I do think it was a factor nonetheless.

[LymphocyteLover]

126. it definitely solidified GOP support for him

[SharonAnn]

17. And yet, the Dems didn't continually publish the positive news, buy ads, etc. That's on us.

[dickthegrouch]

98. You probably didn't see them

They probably weren’t deemed effective enough to show in your demographic. But there were certainly dem ads shown to people whose opinion might be changed.

[returnee]

9. There's no question that's part of it.

There are many contributors, in my opinion, but I cannot attribute the meanness I’m seeing from Republicans to algorithms. Sometimes it’s just sociopathy.

[LeftInTX]

12. It's the conspiracy theories

[Doodley]

13. Good point. Trump maximized the racist, homophobic, transphobic, mysogynist vote. Kamala had to overcome that.

[littlemissmartypants]

10. ❤️

[Johnny2X2X]

14. Really good thoughts

It's these new realities that are so powerful.

The economy for instance. Inflation is 2.1%. UE is near full employment. Wage growth is robust, especially at the bottom. It's just factually one of the best economies in 50 years and certainly better than the economy under Trump, even before Covid. But these infortmation bubbles punch right through that, and even allow a person to ignore their own situation and swear up and down the economy is awful. You saw this in polling, people would answer like, "Well, yeah, my own financial situation is greatly improved, but I'm not better off because the economy is so bad."

And don't think this won't work in reverse too. The economy will go into recession and these same people will be talking about how great the economy is, they'll even set aside their own financial problems to obey their information bubble. "Sure, I lost my job and my car and burned through my savings, but the economy is so great, so I'm better off." All the whle wages will go back down, unemployment will rise, and inflation will soar. But Trump will just say, "greatest economy eva!" And the masses will roll up the rags on their sleeves and applaud.

They have harnessed a horrible power and we're just seeing its effects now.

[groundloop]

38. Along those same lines people expected prices to actually drop to pre-Covid levels

I kept seeing "in 2020 I paid xxxx for a loaf of bread, the economy sucks". True, President Biden's team did a great job of taming inflation, but the misinformed public bought into the BS about prices still being higher than they were 4 years ago.

[intrepidity]

157. Prices *are* higher than they were 4 years ago

Been out to eat lately??

Those of us on a fixed income sure as hell know this!

[Native]

16. Finally, someone explaining how targeting works. We're an old group and very defensive to boot. Explanations like this

are crucial. So again, thank you for taking the time to educate people here.

[jaxexpat]

19. If no one's told you lately that you're a genius, EarlG, elbow them in the ribs (gently but definitely).

Ve con Dios, eh?

[TRHST82]

20. Dems needs to match the right's online media ecosystem.

[KPN]

36. Hope our record with talk radio isn't an indicator

of how that will go for us.

[intrepidity]

158. It is the perfect indicator

Why would it differ?

[ananda]

21. Buyer's remorse will set in for a lot of people.

But with Trump having all three branches of government,
there may never be another election.

[Vogon_Glory]

151. I disagree. There will never be a free and fair election n/t

[erronis]

22. And this algorithmic messaging is now automated and will grow and learn

The very early instances of how to micro-target audiences such as "southerners" or "house-wives' has evolved to many different dimensions. Each one of us have thousands of vectors that pretty well describe how we'll react in different conditions.

Cambridge Analytica as well as various CIA-type spin-offs have been working on this for years. The Russians (and others) have weaponized it well.

[Passages]

23. A piece of the loss, yes. I agree with you on that.

[leftstreet]

26. Has DU become its own bubble?

I ask that with all due respect, as I've appreciated and loved the community of people here for many years.

I was pretty surprised over the results, but its my own fault. I'm guilty of limiting my exposure, in a manner somewhat as you've described.

It's not algorithms etc in my case, it's just being sick and tired of news programs, talking heads, polls, propaganda click bait,maybe politics in general...and have checked out but for a few information sources.

Again with all due respect, but as DU tends to limit discussion that doesn't paint a fairly rosy picture of the party, has that created something both unrealistic and detrimental for activism?

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

[EarlG]

58. DU has always been a bubble!

If all points of view were welcome here, this would be a completely different community, and I'm guessing most of you probably wouldn't be here, because it would suck. We restrict viewpoints because this place has a specific purpose -- to let people with center-to-left political views hang out and chat to each other without right-wingers interrupting, and we're not hiding that fact. Any community dedicated to a specific point of view is going to create its own information bubble.

However, we still use an old-fashioned delivery system. I know some people joke about DU being addictive, but it's not actively engineered to be that way. The information on DU is all brought here by other human beings, who read or saw something interesting and wanted to share it with people that they know have a similar point of view. It's not delivered by a computer algorithm that has analyzed your entire life and is dedicated to keeping you hooked on content that it knows you can't put down.

And at the end of the day, I think most DUers are relatively skeptical about information and are keen to make sure that the information they're reading is true. Most of the time, whenever someone posts an OP that's clearly factually incorrect, even if it is something that looks bad for Republicans, you will see DUers immediately rush to correct them, rather than spread the misinformation as if it is real. That's the opposite of how most social media works, where false information is peddled as quickly as possible to vast and credulous audiences.

[TwilightZone]

66. I should have refreshed before posting. haha

And I took too long.

[leftstreet]

69. Lol true enough

But I wasn't thinking of right wing garbage.

I can start an OP saying our candidates should be running on Medicare for all, raising the minimum wage, reducing military spending, but it would likely be alerted and removed before long.

DU's mission is to support Democrats, which should include letting them know what their voters are thinking. Maybe the candidates might benefit if the "bubble" could stretch a bit.

I'm sure Harris is asking her advisors a lot of questions today...

[COL Mustard]

72. I do agree that it's good to get multiple perspectives on issues sometimes

But getting non-fact based opinions, and you know the trolls would come out, would make this a very inhospitable place. I’m glad it works the way it does, and I thank you for running it!

[unblock]

77. With a notable exception for the Vance couch thing

Well we did correct it, but even after we knew it was incorrect, we still had fun with that one.

[LarryNM]

142. No.

Most of the time they are rushing to alert and remove any sincere disagreement with Democratic politicians or policies and label them "right wing talking points". Most Americans disagree with Many Democratic policies, Not Principles, on Immigration, Environmental Initiatives, and Social Policies. Most of these people are Not Bigots, Racists, or Misogynists. They overwhelmingly support Social Security, Medicare and even Medicaid and Medical assistance. Maybe they are wrong or just Maybe they have a different interpretation of the facts than those on DU. There are reasons the Democratic Party is losing Lower and Moderate income voters. People look out for their own interests, nothing new there, just more Hi Tech now. The hard part is to do the same for others. Alerting on those who don't say hooray for "our side" enough, or giving a pass to those who do, doesn't win elections. FWIW, it can be used by those of ill intent against you. It's as productive as alerting the election results themselves.

[TwilightZone]

65. DU has always been its own bubble.

President Biden said this summer that people needed to step out of their silos and see things from different perspectives.

We are, without a doubt, one of those silos. We're kind of a silo within a silo within a silo.

In many ways, it's a positive, because it's a safe place for Democrats, liberals, and others of similar persuasion. It can also be an excellent source of information on politics and many issues beyond. The amount of misinformation that gets through is reduced drastically compared to other social media, though not entirely. The community is often quite good at rooting out the nonsense.

But, it's also a bit of an isolation zone. We're a niche audience, and DU doesn't represent anything beyond DU, in most respects. We're our own little ecosystem. And, we're not immune to projection.

DU may paint a somewhat-rosy picture of the party, though I'm not sure I'd totally agree. There's always been a contingent that is pretty hard on the party, really to a fault. They're more apparent at times like these, when things have gone poorly.

DU does sometimes paint a too-rosy picture of outside events. The hyperbolic optimism about this election, for example - some went as far as to insist that it was going to be a historical Reagan/Mondale landslide and chastised anyone who disagreed - didn't do us any favors. It only set up ridiculously unrealistic expectations that only made the eventual crash that much more profound.

I personally find that DU works best when combined with other sources, both for varying perspectives and to ensure that the bubble isn't unduly influencing how I view people or events.

All that being said, it can be hard to be a skeptic and a realist in this place sometimes!

[jfz9580m]

105. All places are bubbles to some extent

I love DU. But I’ll be honest that I also read some sources (only ever from the left) that are more critical of the Democratic Party than posters here would like.

I rarely post them here because: 1) I dislike flame wars as they rarely lead to meaningful discussion and I am generally pacific (even with GOP voters as opposed to movement GOP like Vought/Greene/Boebert/Musk/Vance/Trump etc who really are just cruel and callous human beings). I don’t shift my policy positions to be pacific or liked but I do dislike anger, rancor and arguments. I have had more of them in my life than I ever wanted ;-/..some of it my fault and some of it circumstantial. 2) I don’t want posters with differing views to feel one is sneakily violating TOS or attacking their worldviews. Most people stop listening if you attack their worldviews and then communication stops at that point. I would not attack other DUers’ worldviews. Since no one here is a troll (who isn’t kicked out by MIRT fast enough).

But I do think it is a strategic mistake to tune out progressive voices..I am unambigously aligned with the Bernie/AOC wing of the party.

I think they are key to understanding a vital young voter base that if wooed by the Democratic Party could become a long term loyal base to balance out the Maga one the GOP now has.

For instance one progressive voice with a fair amount of influence over me is Nathan Robinson. He is often critical of the Democratic Party but I think that is because he wants to see the party move left rather than centre and I do personally think that could energise the youth vote. I can’t speak for him but I would be shocked if he is a Jill Stein voter.

I am pretty left but I draw the line at advocating for voting for Jill Stein or Nader to “vote your conscience”. That is basically that Nika Soon Shiong stuff I disapprove of a lot. It is basically callously ignoring the sheer scale of suffering it causes each time the GOP gets back into power.

The reason I am on DU is that it fits my worldview. My line in the sand re going left ends where Jill Stein/Nader etc start. I don’t like them at all.

But certainly I do like to see the dems move left. I don’t really see any serious alternative to the Democratic Party in the US and with the US system. Which is why I think it is important that the Dems move left and with better messaging (I agreed completely with EarlG’s op) to snag a chunk of the left voter base which I think would be reliable if wooed more.

If left Dems and more centre leaning dems could learn to work together it would be a powerful repudiation of Maga. Economic populism and a serious commitment to environmental issues/pacifism are a winning combo for the dems is my guess at this point in time.

[leftstreet]

108. +1

If left Dems and more centre leaning dems could learn to work together it would be a powerful repudiation of Maga. Economic populism and a serious commitment to environmental issues/pacifism are a winning combo for the dems is my guess at this point in time.

You make very good points. Thanks for taking the time to post

[jfz9580m]

110. Thank you for reading leftstreet :).nt

[KT2000]

27. the creators of AI

have met and now realize they themselves have no control so it will get worse. How do we fight a ghost? (I am not kidding)

[Dem4life1234]

28. I don't know

They know what he was about, he lost 2020 precisely because he was a malevolent clown!

People should know what he is about by now, instead of them being stuck on stupid.

One thing, at least he didn't gain any new supporters.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

39. He gained

He improved 6pts with 18-29yo voters and outright won first time voters 54-45.
https://www.nbcwashington.com/decision-2024/2024-voter-turnout-election-demographics-trump-harris/3762138/]

[Trekologer]

88. It makes a bit of sense for first time voters under 25

The COVID-19 pandemic stole a year or two of high school and/or college and the associated activities and experiences from them. There was a ton of revisionist history (a/k/a disinformation) being pumped out that it was Democratic governors ordering lockdowns totally on their own and completely ignoring that it was the Trump administration providing that guidance in the first place.

So, if you've bought into those "alternative facts" you already hold animosity toward the incumbent party and there was no effort being made to combat this.

This post-fact world is the one we are living it and the press isn't going to save us. They're going to keep point-counterpointing to avoid truthfulness judgements and focus on the process stories and palace intrigue. So Democrats need to be better at getting their message out through new media outlets.

And you know what? Constantly attack the press when they don't do a good job. Quite frankly, working the refs works.

[Ocelot II]

30. Confirmation bias can be a dangerous thing

and everyone is susceptible to it, us included. But when social media messages are specifically designed to weaponize confirmation bias, especially in the most gullible people, they can cause a disaster. It will be very difficult to break through this but something has to be figured out, because as it is now we have to operate in a world where effectively there is no truth.

[BoRaGard]

31. "misinformation peddled on an industrial scale"

What you said

[Hekate]

33. We just got some stunning family news from some in-laws: almost the whole younger gen voted Trump

I’m glad I can come here. Thanks for keeping the lights in for us.
💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔

[yardwork]

35. Did they say why?

That would be interesting and helpful to know.

[orleans]

61. i heard today (either from one of the shows on wcpt

or olbermann's podcast) that people under 30 are getting their news from tiktok

and on that note, today males are trolling females on tiktok saying: "your body, my choice"

‘Your body, my choice’: Women report rise in online misogyny following Donald Trump’s victory
https://www.the-independent.com/life-style/trump-misogyny-tiktok-reproductive-rights-us-election-b2643207.html

[Sparkly]

97. ??!

I find that extremely disturbing, even as a joke.

[orleans]

103. they're taking their masks off and showing what they really are nt

[mnhtnbb]

62. This is what blows my mind

as well as the fact that the educated, suburban white Republican women voted for him. I really thought they'd vote for Harris and then revert to voting Republican down ballot. Silly me.

[Cha]

112. They didn't care he's an Ajudicate Rapist 34 Counts a Felon.. a Convicted Fraud

A Sexual Predator and a Psychoptic Liar.. Stealer of Classified Docs.

So they're in the cult. They Didn't care about Ukraine. Putin is Good with the?

Was Kamala too Good for them?

Sorry Hekate.. I'm so worried right now.

[Maggiemayhem]

131. Gen Z follows Barron Trump and podcasters

There were warnings that were totally ignored.

[yardwork]

34. I'm still looking at the returns and I tend to agree...

I do think that Democrats seem to have somehow missed outreach to Latino voters. That kind of abrupt shift is significant.

[Artistree22]

37. Right wing radio and trumps own rants

I agree with everything you stated EarlG.
Also, the right wing radio -rush windbag fed into FOX - then fed into these online Bro podcast influencers. Truth has never been a part of their purpose but instilling fear/hate of others especially the Democratic Party. Many trump voters weren't trump lovers but they make me even madder. (like in my family) People who could hear his own hateful, vindictive petty, whiny insane rants and say "hey at least it's not a Democrat or a woman".

[Algernon Moncrieff]

60. At this point, it's more RW podcasting and streaming

AM radio is about dead, and I'm waiting for the FM bandwidth to be sold off like over-the-air TV was.

[Emrys]

40. Never imagine you're alone in this sort of soul-searching

Last edited Fri Nov 8, 2024, 11:03 AM - Edit history (1)

My own circumstances are trivial in the grand scheme of things, but they rhyme.

In the UK, we just went through an election where a Tory Party that had proven itself functionally worthless, corrupt and worse over more than a decade was supplanted by a Labour Party that had been too long ossified in opposition and caught up in dismembering itself of any radicalism, spurred on by corrupting outside interests and finance, and even in the aftermath of its victory (and please believe me when I say we have our own problems with an electoral system that often throws up over-flattering results for the victor, leaving many unrepresented) is depressingly predictably flat-footed, gobsmackingly lacking in vision and empathy, in the pocket of Big Money, and terrifyingly setting the scene for a rightist takeover as this new electoral cycle plays out.

I live in a part of the UK, Scotland, that has a comparatively functional government. It's not perfect by any means, but it's streets ahead of what Westminster offers. It's penny-poor at the level of party funding and the money sloshing around its officeholders, and all the better for that. It faces an almost universally hostile media that downplays its successes and its worthwhile initiatives that could set a positive model for the UK as a whole, and overplays its glitches and failings. And yes, by any meaningful measure, it's woke, and unashamedly so. This in a country whose international image is superficially dominated by macho gruff maleness and illiberal use of the C-word.

The SNP, of which I'm a member, had a serious setback in terms of Westminster politics at the last general election. The Labour Party in Scotland was given free passes that are low-key Trumpish in nature - getting away with many, many lies unchallenged and airy handwaving at unworkable policy commitments they abandoned just as airily once elected, all because they painted a "reality" that was less complex than what's really happening, and hence more palatable to too many.

What I see around me in the UK as a whole is a not insignificant body of people who are bloody sensible and well-intentioned and see through a lot of the nonsense that fills our airwaves and media on a daily basis. They are clear-eyed despite the noise. But there are many who are just plain lazy.

Lazy. Ripe for the picking by those with glib answers to whatever problems they are afflicted by, easily distracted by the latest scandal or just so caught up in the grind of their daily lives (which excuses some of my charge of laziness) that a grander picture is not something that interests or is urgent to them unless it's to spill and share simplistic bigotry yadayada in their social settings.

As I think may happen with Trump this next time around, Labour here has had no meaningful honeymoon period, and polls of favourability ratings so far have been atrocious. We do have, lurking in the wings, a force which is downright sinister in Nigel Farage's latest grand scam, the Reform Party, which finally gained a handful of elected seats in the last election. Skipping conveniently over Brexit - Farage's main mission in life - which has proven and is still proving to be as much of a disaster as we opponents of it always warned it would, they've been allowed to just handwave it away, and they've cornered Labour to the extent that it dismisses any idea of meaningful rapprochement with the EU, without which we're economically fucked, and even more so with Trump ready to wage protectionism on a grand scale. The fear is that if Labour screw up as badly as they're shaping to at the moment, they will open the gates for Reform and its fellow travellers to take power in the next general election.

Meanwhile, in my country, Scotland, many of us have a vision for a small, modern standalone state with its own distinct internationalist and social democratic values that could shy away from this rightward shift. But we're not going to be given the chance to make that choice again in the foreseeable future.

Trapped as we feel - and we're going to be as subject to the baleful transatlantic winds from the next Trump regime as anywhere else, no doubt with Labour waqging its tail abjectly in its wake, as it has done before - I wouldn't trade our place for yours, though I absolutely feel sympathy and solidarity.

[geniph]

68. Precisely this:

"Ripe for the picking by those with glib answers to whatever problems they are afflicted by, easily distracted by the latest scandal or just so caught up in the grind of their daily lives (which excuses some of my charge of laziness) that a grander picture is not something that interests or is urgent to them unless it's to spill and share simplistic bigotry yadayada in their social settings."

It's easy for those of us with the privilege of TIME to criticize those who make their political decisions based on low information or outright disinformation. Yes, it's the responsibility of every citizen to educate themself, BUT - when one is working two jobs and still can't pay rent or get the car repaired, there just isn't the luxury of time for considered thinking and research. So one votes for the face one has seen on TV, or thinks, "well, he had the job before, he must know what to do" (cough, choke). Those of us immersed in politics sometimes forget how strong, too, are the politics of revenge and vindictiveness. To those who've been ridiculed and mocked as "hillbillies" and, yes, "deplorables," striking back is a strong motivator. I'm not saying it's excusable, but it is understandable. A large segment of the country is uncomfortable with change, with new ideas, and very uncomfortable with being laughed at or scolded for that, and ... well, they just got their vengeance for it.

But when you come right down to it, I fully believe this election was all about the pocketbooks. People don't care what the leading economic indicators say, or how the stock market is doing. They know their businesses are failing, eggs and gas cost more money, and they can't afford a house. They will ALWAYS punish the party in power when they feel that way.

[LittleGirl]

141. Thank you for your post

My spouse is a UK/US citizen and grew up in London. He and I have stopped watching the UK news lately but your summary is very well informed. I always wondered why Scotland wanted to leave the UK and you explained it really well. I appreciate that. If things don't work out here in the US, we always have the UK to go to if we MUST. Thanks again.

[Emrys]

143. You're very welcome

I didn't know where I was going with it when I started typing, and I'm impressed people seem to have made it through my stream-of-consciousness "weave" (heh, *spit*).

My wife is American, and moved here (by marrying me - a lot harder to do that nowadays) in the Reagan years. I moved to Scotland from Wales. It's an amazing part of the UK which we both fell deeply in love with, and could be even more amazing given its head. The UK has plenty of its own problems, of course, but it's a matter of degree and scale ...

[LittleGirl]

149. As soon as Brexit was determined

we changed our plans. I don't know how to drive on that side of the road but I was willing to learn.
I really enjoy sunny weather so the UK was a difficult decision for me.
While I lived in Switzerland and Germany for nearly 13 years total, I realized that I really missed my American life despite the idiots that voted for 45 (even family). So we picked CA since I told hubby, we will never live in a red state again. Now, look what happens.

Thanks for sharing.

[live love laugh]

41. Well said especially this ....

Traditional campaigning is still important, but this election may show that it is no longer enough, on its own, to overcome misinformation peddled on an industrial scale.

[bucolic_frolic]

42. AI has enhanced the methods of mind control for profit

But it won't help Trump govern because none in his orbit will consult it. They believe themselves too brilliant!

[BumRushDaShow]

43. "people's opinions were already baked in"

That sums it up.

I would add that over 15 years ago, infamous funders of the GOP - the Koch brothers - made a decision to get involved in "local politics" - literally down to the "school board level", using their "Americans for Prosperity" to fund their agenda.

How the Koch Brothers Backed Public-School Segregation

Politics
August 15, 2011

Andy Kroll


(snip)

The story starts back in 2009, when elections were held for four of Wake County’s nine school board seats—enough seats to dictate the public school district’s agenda if all four board members wanted the same reforms. That’s where Americans for Prosperity, a conservative political advocacy group, came into play. AFP funded a local grassroots group, WakeCARES, that organized on behalf of four candidates who sought to kill the district’s policy of busing to ensure diverse, desegregated public schools.* The four candidates ran against what they called “forced busing”—a phrase, the film points out, that dates back to George Wallace in the 1970s—and instead stressed that schools should educate only those who lived in the surrounding neighborhood.

Local reporters, some of whom are interviewed in the film, connected the push to eliminate busing with the philosophies of AFP and its funders. “They’re definitely pushing an agenda to resegregate these schools, but there’s also a real push toward privatization,” Sue Sturgis of the Institute for Southern Studies says in the film.

In the end, with the help of AFP-backed WakeCARES, all four anti-busing candidates won, and the school board has since taken steps toward rolling back its existing busing policies despite a wave of protest and outrage in the local community.

(snip)

That model "worked" and through those school boards (culminating in the more recent "Moms for (but really against) Liberty" engaging in censorship and a culture war, they were able to meddle and influence down at that lowest community level.

In some urban areas, like here in Philly, there is still the old vestiges of "patronage party politics", with a "boss" who would organize the local infrastructure. But in this day and age of the internet and social media (which has exploded with all the independent programming coming through "podcasts" ), that type of "patronage system" is outdated and unable to keep up.

This is definitely an opportunity to be ready for 2026.

[Mike 03]

44. Thanks! It's very cathartic to read this analysis.

The playbook is 100 years old but the technology is brand new.

It's amazing those old tricks cooked up by Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin still work after all these years, and that nobody can think of a good way to short-circuit it.

At least we know where we stand. We can stop make-believing people are voting for Trump because they misunderstand what he truly is, or because they don't know he is lying, or because they believe a few "facts" that are wrong.

[dgauss]

111. "The playbook is 100 years old but the technology is brand new."

So true. And because of the evolving technology the playbook is evolving as well. The huge amount of personal data being collected and sold and then being used to micro target people to push the exact button that will be effective on that person is one example. It's still about the old cynical strategy of manipulating perceptions but we haven't caught up with how to deal with these new tools.

And because it is evolving so fast, most people don't even see it yet, or at least appreciate it. No one even has an idea yet of how to catch up.

[marked50]

46. My Wife and I have been discussing this exactly as you have described for a couple of days now. I agree completely with

your analysis. Demographic analysis is important but if you can't breakthrough this new form of Brainwashing ( which we have never ever really seen before) we will most definitely be controlled by it and more specifically by those who are generating and controlling these tools.

I know someone (I will not name or identify) who is someone people would call a computer systems Nerd. He was involved with the eventual rollout of the precursor for the internet ( it started with the Military of course)-ARPANET. He retired a number of years ago.

I haven't had many discussions with him over the years in regards to those things but I did just a few months ago. He confirmed something to me that I always had some concern about. I was reticent about any social media usage when that stuff started appearing years ago. We (wife and myself) made the decision to avoid participating in any of it. It certainly restricted our friends and family contact, but we still have phone and email contacts ( we only use a flip-phone and only when we are on-the road).

The confirmation part of the conversation with him was around this exact potential of Control of social media. He said that he too was not participating in any of this because of what he knew about it's danger- he never started engaging in it. He tried to keep it simple for me but it is exactly what you have described in this OP EarlG. Algorithmic methods are only a part of it. There is more.

Now the real scary part that exists now is the involvement of Musk, X, and Starlink. There is a reason that the Team now consists of Trump and that Project 2025 Crew and Musk. We are only seeing the beginning of what may come in the not to distant future means of control.

How we can prepare ourselves and deal with this is something I have no concept of.

[LudwigPastorius]

49. The TOP (Trump's Oleaginous Party) can't help but fuck with Social Security and Obamacare.

That will get people's attention, and hopefully destroy the stranglehold on Congress I expect them to have.

Of course, we still somehow have to get through the next couple of years before the midterms.

[Cosmocat]

50. 100% agree until last point

There will be very little buyers remorse because:

1) generally being too proud to admit they were wrong.

2) we will point these things out, and they will reflexively react against us cause we are the enemy to them.

[bronxiteforever]

51. Ah This explains Peter Theil and the Silicon Valley Divas

participation and usefulness in the campaign. The problems we face are daunting with the richest people on earth able to use AI in this way. Their pockets are not just deep but bottomless to fund the Trumplican party. Plus their ownership of traditional streaming media and tv outlets.
Excellent analysis Earl.

[Initech]

52. One thing the democrats absolutely have to stop with:

They have to stop assuming that only uneducated voters vote for Trump. That's not true at all. Educated voters and voters with money vote for Trump. Because they fall for Fox and social media propaganda day in and day out. We have to find a way to reach them.

[niyad]

53. Thank you so much, EarlG, for explaining that so thoroughly. We have all seen it

in operation, many up close and personal. I know a woman who is completely down the qanon/t#### saviour/executions by military tribunal/medbeds on mars rabbit holes (and, yes, just writing it out gave me a headache!). I tried for several years, as she repeated utter nonsense, to point out that none of it was true. Finally, one day I asked her, "You say you don't trust the msm, they all lie. But how do you know that the things you are reading and watching are true, not lies? What evidence do you have that tells you that msm lies, and the other stuff is true?" She replied, "My intuition. I can feel it." That was the last conversation we ever had. After Tuesday's horror, I am doubly thankful not to be hearing whatever nonsense she would be spewing.

For a while I had wondered that, with the entire world of information available to her, the bs was all she ran across. That was before I really began to understand how insidious those algorithms are. Truly upsetting.

[tulipsandroses]

54. I agree with your analysis. I still believe that racism and sexism played a role but so did social media

Even for folks that are not full on MAGA. Talking to them is like talking to a brick wall. They don't budge once they've latched on to something they've been fed a steady diet of day after day for years.

I think we have to be prepared to deal with this with a long term strategy in mind.
The one thing I would like to see that may help as a long term strategy is continued engagement in as many neighborhoods year round. Have town halls, cook outs, community events where civics education, issues affecting each community is presented in a non confrontational way. Little by little that might chip away at the hold of online fear mongering and propaganda.

A year from now, in that townhall or community event - Compare and Contrast -
What you thought was going to happen and What is happening.
It trump goes through with his tariffs and deports migrants - prices will definitely go up.
There is such a different dynamic in communicating in person vs online.
When it comes to online spaces, " group think" can be an issue. Everyone is saying it here so it must be true.
Vs. small group conversations.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

56. There will be midterms?

I love that optimism!

[ffr]

59. For me, to break through the information bubble, it came down to critical thinking (education)

Critical thinking or reasoning is not taught in our K-12 schools or wasn't to anyone I know. It was labeled under philosophy as an elective general education course in college.

I cannot say for sure that it baked-in how I break down information the way I do now, but I can say that it helped me to understand why I would break down information the way I had prior to such courses and how to do so more effectively.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1398820.Science_and_Unreason

Short of the masses educating themselves with the tools to effectively think critically, we as a society will never advance politically.

[anobserver2]

63. Here's what I don't understand

Every news report I've heard on public radio (and elsewhere) citing the top concerns of voters who voted for Trump mention (1) cost of living / economics and (2) border security. These were the two issues cited by those voters after they voted for Trump.

OK. So, those voters did not mention "democracy" or "abortion." My question is this: Didn't Democratic focus groups talking to these voters prior to the election also reveal and recognize that the economy & border issues were the two top concerns for certain voters? In short - were these two issues really a surprise now?

How could the Democratic Party not have known this? Were these voters not in the focus groups? Did these voters never mention this before?

It seems to me the biggest difficulty faced by VP Kamela Harris was that she really could not say anything against her boss, President Biden, on these issues -- so those voters, perhaps feeling like she was not hearing their concerns and not acknowledging those concerns, went elsewhere.

I have to say I was really surprised by the results of this election, and the fact it looks like we are in for four years of not only a GOP White House, but also a GOP Senate and a GOP House. I really was not expecting this outcome,

[genxlib]

135. I am certain they knew

But had no good answer for them.

Prices are what they are. No amount of campaign spin or targeted messaging was going to change that. Similarly, they had no good narrative for the border other than getting blocked on a late move to fix it. There just is no winning message to be found there.

They decided to focus on pro-choice and democracy as issues that might move the needle. It wasn't enough to overcome issue #1 and #2.

[genxlib]

138. This is 1000% the message I have been spouting for years.

Among all of the short term and long term political ramifications, it is this total disconnect from a shared reality that has me pessimistic on the future.

I just don’t think that the human capability for independent thought is dealing well with technology advancements.

In the transition from broadcast to cable to internet, the sources of information that people utilize have been increasingly self selected.

In the continued evolution of social media, that self-selection became curated content. At first it was by algorithms that care more about screentime than reality. They quickly learned that outrage generated more clicks than nuanced information. It is like an addiction and they will sell you stronger and stronger drugs to keep you coming back. I don’t even think it was on purpose at first. It is just that the programming was tasked to generate engagement and outrage is what worked more often than not.

Inevitably this led to sponsored micro-targeting of the feeds. With the amount that is known about people, feeds can be customized to reach us individually. We are at the point where every single person in America has a customized feed of information.

And it will only get worse with the advent of AI. We can now generate images and video to actually provide “evidence” even for things that aren’t true. We are entirely unprepared for that. Being convinced that a fake image is true isn’t even the worst outcome. It is the general idea that no image can be trusted that will further degrade the ability to prove anything to anyone.

For all of those saying, "no, it was the misogyny, or the racism, or the ignorance, or the nationalism, or the christianity, or the isolationism...". That is just the point. It can be all of those things with the exact perfect message beamed straight into the consciousness of each person depending on their particular mindset. And it can be customized to target fear, anxiety, anger, depending on what works best at the individual level. It doesn't matter if it's true, or nuanced or fair. It is effective and it's killing us.

And just to be clear, I include us in all of that. We are all a product of our individualized data stream. I would argue we are better than others but I think the last few weeks have shown that we also experience a significant level of disconnect.

We no longer live in a world where we share any common sense of reality. It makes me pessimistic for the future even beyond politics. I don't see how we tackle any future challenges in this environment.

[Jit423]

67. Resetting the playing field must become resetting the battlefield.

And why will we never be able to have the infrastructure to combat this? We can get onto every social media platform we can and respond to the lies and misinformation and put out a few facts and truths. And we can use our own group to repost.

Thanks for all you do for DU.

[Metaphorical]

70. Words ... matter

I am an ontologist by trade. This means at its core that I help organizations to build the data models that they use to describe themselves. I practice a principle called FAIR (findability, accessibility, interoperability, and reusability) that incorporates the ethics of establishing terminology. This is very important because the language that you use, how you use it , and how you ensure its cleanliness and lineage is a big part of making sure that such models reflect reality.

I, and many others in this space, have been sounding the alarm for some time (since the beginning of the century) about the data pollution that we're facing, almost all directed by (if not necessarily produced by) the conservatives. What they realized early on is that there are no consequences for lying. None. People do not care about lying until it impacts them and by then it's too late. Lie a bit, move the Overton window, stabilize. Rinse and repeat. Without any way to tell, and with increasingly poor discernment skills, people will default to the notion that everyone lies, therefore I will only listen to what most represents my worldview. Combining that with the ability to microtarget everyone, you have the perfect societal control mechanism.

The problem, unfortunately, is that if you are trying to be truthful and honest, it's not going to penetrate, because you're dealing with a whole cloud of lies. You can't impugn the source, because it is trivial to bring up new sources. When this gets reinforced by the "legitimate" media, it becomes even worse. This is, in fact, how people get so caught up in MAGA, and the danger of it is that once you go down that rabbit hole, even if you are consciously trying not to, it becomes harder not to wonder if the sources that you are yourself using are in fact accurate.

By the way, this isn't just happening in the US. It's a worldwide problem, and is only getting worse. It's not the message - I think the message we have is compelling - it's the medium.

[Aussie105]

71. The difference?

Harris/Dems: We are doing ok, steady as she goes, the ship of state is doing fine!
No undeliverable promises from us!

Repugs/Trump: We can and should be doing a lot better! Here is a bunch of unrealistic and unfulfillable promises! They are vague, but just use your imagination!

And the great unwashed, each individual being disgruntled by something in their own lives, took the Trump bait.

Being brash, abusive and unrealistic in politics is the new way US politics will be done from now on, at least for the next 4 years.
Other countries look on and shudder.

[BigmanPigman]

73. A big shocking event, a meteor hitting Earth seems about right

Nothing less would not amount to much change. If voters are this lazy, ignorant and apathetic after 8 years of this BS there is nothing that will change them.

[cilla4progress]

74. Russia perfected this under Stalin!

Propaganda has long been used in repressive states. This is simply 2.0 for US

From Wikipedia:

Propaganda in the Soviet Union was the practice of state-directed communication aimed at promoting class conflict, proletarian internationalism, the goals of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, and the party itself.

The main Soviet censorship body, Glavlit, was employed not only to eliminate any undesirable printed materials but also "to ensure that the correct ideological spin was put on every published item."[1] After the death of Joseph Stalin, punitive measures were replaced by punitive psychiatry, prison, denial of work, and loss of citizenship.

[Uncle Smart Ass]

75. Uncle Smart Ass

Very well stated. I’ve gone from high expectations to hope, from hope to dismay, from dismay to dread, from dread to anger. Republicans always get drunk with power and overreach. This time will be no different. The question is whether this time we will be able to fight back and recover or not!

Side note: I remember seeing an article a few weeks ago about Soros buying one hundred or so AM radio stations. Hope it panned out. That’s a start to alleviate the massive advantage Republicans have in the media.

We need better messaging as a party and a youth infusion of candidates and spokespeople. I’m utterly shocked at the losses around the edges of groups we used to count on. We’ve lost the working folks. How did that happen?

[AllyCat]

76. I'm hearing this over and over from party folks,

On down to the administration assistant at the front desk.

The coming horror may be the only thing that shocks them out of their comas and into working with others again.

[Dem4life1970]

78. I agree that buyer's remorse is going to set in quickly

And also he will have a very short honeymoon. Melania knows all about that by the way but I digress. VP Harris ran a fantastic campaign especially given the circumstances she was under. But most democracies across the globe, post covid, have been taking it out on incumbents. That was true in France, India, and several other places. I thought it would be different in the United States because you essentially had two incumbents running, one of whom is a felonious, insurrectionist, rapist, too many adjectives to be placed here, but you get the picture. So in that sense it was probably too tough for her to defy gravity based on what has been going on in response to the global inflation post COVID.

[IbogaProject]

80. Mark Zuckerberg too

My Facebook notifications thing op on the top right got very quiet for at least several weeks leading up to the election and the feed itself was missing political content and a weeks worth of older posts all showed up yesterday. So Trace Book played a part too, and I'd bet instagram too.

[GoreWon2000]

81. I agree with what you're saying.

I also think that W's all out assault on American democracy in Florida in 2000 and having the Rehnquist 5 rubberstamp his theft of the 2000 election has horrified millions of Americans to the point that they've given up on democracy. Let's also not forget the role of the pro repug media in 2000 as well as in 2024. The media wants to be part of the power base and they see the repugs as representing the power base that they want to be part of. The dems represent the people fighting for a seat at the table and they get much harsher treatment from the media because the media sees them as a threat to the powerbase.

[Fearless]

82. This is a symptom not the problem

People have always surrounded themselves by those that they agree with. Echo chambers if you will. The rise of social media and the recognition of the power it has to affect public opinion was on show this election cycle. Yet the reason why it works, the actual problem is racism and misogyny. Men of all racial and ethnic backgrounds by and large still do not trust women with power. White women still do not trust Black women with power. 43% of women who voted voted for Trump. 55% of men. It's no surprise that Trump HEAVILY used racist dog whistles and allusions to historical Nazi language, symbolism, and events.

The fact is the "economy" is good. Yet for the average person, who can't afford a house of their own, can't afford college, can't pay medical bills, can't find a job with good benefits, can't see any hope for the future, the economy is NOT doing well. It isn't good for the majority of people. A majority of people feel better about 2015 than they do about 2025, regardless of party.

Donald Trump tapped into that fear. He tapped into the fear of uneducated white men who can't "get a woman", can't get a good job, can't move out of their parents house, who have fallen down the alt-right pipeline that idolizes men like Joe Rogan or Elon Musk. The fact is that the Democratic Party did NOT provide them an alternative vision for the future. As Bernie Sanders had mentioned, the Democratic Party has cozied up to corporations and organizations, including large unions, that don't directly benefit the average voter in their minds today.

So all Trump had to do was make them FEAR things getting worse, take away their hope for the future, and point out that none of the Democratic Party's plans actually solved any of these existential issues. And he did. So many non-political type voters stayed home. Many men of all backgrounds who are working class, middle class or poor, voted for Trump. White women voted for Trump.

The fact is that the American middle class is dead. The core of the Democratic Party does not exist anymore. The message tailored to a group that doesn't exist falls on deaf ears. If they want to solve problems, actually help voters they need to fix the problems that plague the working class today.

They need a clear plan to break up capital groups that purchase and own single homes AND apartment buildings. No business or person should be allowed in America to own more than a dozen properties. All over that limit must be sold off at a rate of no less than 10% per year, every year until they've met that limit. This must also be true for commercial properties. Office space should not be empty while people sleep on the streets.

They need a clear plan to implement single payer universal health care options that cover health, dental, and vision care for Americans.

They need a clear plan to require free voter ID cards be distributed to EVERY American. Voter registration must be automatic at 18.
Present them at the poll. Vote electronically. The voting station will provide you with a receipt with a randomized code not tied to your identity allowing you to see your vote online at any point after the polls close. Voter registration must be automatic at 18 years old. Make people feel safe that their vote counts, that their voice is heard.

Mandate the solvency of Social Security. Require everyone to pay into Social Security regardless of wealth. Remove the cap. Make it a progressive tax, whereby the wealthy will pay MORE into it than the poor.

Make stock buybacks illegal (again). Companies should have to invest in their employees and infrastructure not enrich themselves.

Simplify the tax code and close tax loopholes that the wealthy use to get out of paying their fair share.

Base funding for public education on the number of students not the property values of the community.

Unforgivingly break up monopolies and non-compete arrangements between companies, including internet providers.

Raise minimum wage to a living wage and set it to increase with the cost of living.

Create a plan to actually address immigration. Legal and otherwise. 44% of farm workers in the US are undocumented. So long as people feel insecure economically this will be a major losing issue for Democrats. It's what Hitler did... Blame the "others" for your every problem. Create a classification for migrant workers whereby if American citizens are not available to employ, that they can LEGALLY be used for a farm season. Stipulate that they must pay taxes and cannot collect welfare, unemployment or other benefits (they already can't but make it clear). Stipulate that they have to pay a tax to be here and that tax will pay for services that may be needed as a result of them being here. Migrant workers should not cost the taxpayer anything. Make that clear. Then the issue no longer hurts Democrats.

Require background checks, insurance, and a license to own a gun. Tether every gun to their owner. Their owner is legally and criminally liable for any action taken with that gun. Expand the concept of gun-free zones. All federal, state, and local govt. owned property, including schools, parks, public buildings, etc. are all gun free zones. The bringing of guns into these zones leads to an immediate loss of that weapon, your license, and suspension of your right to carry for 5 years regardless of if you harmed someone or not. Private business can also follow these guidelines should they choose to.

Ban payday loans, for profit check cashing, and all similar things. No one should be profited off of for being poor or needing money early.

Mandate that any organization calling themselves a news organization be required to tell the truth. Make them legally liable if they try to manipulate or mislead viewers.

And so on.

In short, tldr, the Democratic Party needs to work for the working class. We need to defend against the fearmongering of the right wing. And we need to have clear policies that clearly fix problems. No Band-Aids. No half measures. Fixes.

[Pinback]

83. Thanks - I agree.

This framework makes it possible for Trump to convey eight different contradictory messages and reach each target group simultaneously. There were certainly factors such as misogyny, racism, xenophobia, and the myth that the economy was better under Trump. All of these were inflamed by disinformation campaigns.

I think we all need to read and digest Barbara McQuade’s 2024 book Attack From Within: How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America:
https://vimeo.com/852460593

[Linda ladeewolf]

84. That is

If there are any midterms. And democrats are allowed to run. Trump has already said that they’ll never have to vote again. I can see an online resistance starting on YouTube and other forums, good luck to all of them. One of them said to organize, militarize and support and protect each other. I do agree with that.

[highplainsdem]

85. I agree, EarlG. I've seen discussions of this on Twitter. From Asha Rangappa this morning:

Link to tweet

Asha Rangappa
@AshaRangappa_

Democrats aren’t going to win elections again until they build a well-oiled information ecosystem that extends to podcasts and every social media platform and can pierce the right-wing propaganda bubble . It doesn’t matter if you delivered on the economy or we are actually safer if people are being pummeled by domestic and foreign disinformation that crime and inflation are up. It’s an information war at this point.

[love_katz]

86. Hmm. I have a quibble with how you're presenting your point.

Liberals do not have any kind of mainstream media that widely presents our side of the issues. We don't have the megaphone of FOX or any major media corporation. The corporate owned media has been both-siding issues to death, going back to the 1970's. Podcasts and the blogosphere exist because they are one of the few sources that do present a liberal point of view.

Saying that the current problems exist because people are too siloed regarding their information sources smacks of blame the victim.

Those of us who will be harmed the most by the misogyny and tyranny of the republican fanatics do not have bags of wealth to buy our own media company.

I don't have any answers about how to fix the problem. Even if we offer a media channel with more accurate information, these bigots are stubbornly fact resistant. They could have changed the channel, or they could have tried interacting with people who are different than them, so they could check out whether " those people " or those femmonazis are really as awful as they have been taught. But, sadly, we know how they react. They go right back to their prejudices and hate.

The problem is that there are a significant number of people who think that they will benefit from a system that oppresses anyone they don't like, and they welcome it. Poison goes where poison is welcome ( quoted from Terry Pratchett).

The people who voted for this horror will have to experience for themselves that oligarchy does not usher in peace and prosperity.

Unfortunately, many good and innocent people will have everything we have worked for taken from us, and many people will die. This is like the Covid pandemic, except that it is a disease of our collective minds and spirits.

[TBF]

87. Thought-provoking OP. I still think we've got a lot of folks who just won't vote for a woman,

but I would agree the information bubbles argument is giving me something to think about. Mostly I am curious as to how we can penetrate that.

[DeeDeeNY]

90. Misinformation peddled on an industrial scale.

In this one phrase you have exactly pinpointed one of the most important reasons for the election's results.

[jfz9580m]

91. Agree with everything you said EarlG

This was exactly the take of one of my best friends who is pretty savvy about these things.

Our media ecosystem is poisoned and I think dems (and broadly educators/activists etc.) need to start engaging with people through non-mainstream (aka not the WaPo or NyT) but a sane/left version of the Rogan experience or its female analog and trying to reach people.

I agree with every word you said. We have to wait and see..

[Sparkly]

92. Good food for thought.

Thank you!

[Hugin]

94. So, what we really need is a bigger blowhorn....

to get through the thick skulls.

Very interesting and useful take, EarlG. I agree what's happening seems to be a perversion of the watercooler effect. People are isolated and fed customized information. Of course, they assume that what they are seeing is what everyone else is seeing. This is exactly how cults are formed.

Extremely likely and also explains the cultish nature of how the programmed behave. Interestingly, it could also explain why people tend to leave Trump's diatribes early. It may be because what they are hearing causes cognitive dissonance with what they have been programmed to "know". Which is uncomfortable.

Now, whether the majority of it is deliberately crafting of mindsets or people such as Trump leveraging the effect to their advantage without understanding it's mechanisms. I'm guessing it's some of both.

Thanks for sharing your dip into the pond, EarlG! Also, I'm going to have to bookmark this thread in that so many of the replies also contain potential puzzle pieces.

[SunSeeker]

95. Inadequate messaging has been our issue for years now.

I busted my ass sending post cards and putting door hangers on houses, but that is old school. I feel like my time and Democratic Party money could have been better sent.

And then there's the issue of misogyny. But if Mexico can elect a woman President, there is no reason we can't.

[orangecrush]

96. He will fuck up on a grand scale before the mid terms

That you can count on.

I just hope it isn't another lethal pandemic, or nuclear.

[The Mouth]

99. Bubbles suck

If at least 40 percent of the people who interact with you aren't of the opposite political persuasion, you are living in a bubble and have no idea what the hell is going on.

Never trust any story, article, or reporter that is saying what you want to hear, what you agree with, or what you think is correct.

Nobody but nobody is right more than about 50 percent of the time, if I were I'd go to Vegas or wall street and make a few billion.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

100. Our reality: Living inside a conspiracy theory.

It's super unhealthy physically and mentally.

WE MUST FIX WHAT IS PUT OUT INTO THE ETHER WITH FACT CHECKS IF WE WANT TO REMAIN A SANE NATION.

Next time plead for a return to fact based information in the USA.

[moniss]

102. You are very correct about the algorithms

etc. They know that tyrants shut down the means for people to receive messaging critical of them for a reason and they have stated for years who they see as an "enemy within" and how they want to silence them. I have tried hard, along with others, to impress upon people the danger of what we, as older people, already lived through. There was alternative voices and media trying to speak out in the '50's and early '60's. But most people today don't understand that much of that voice was actively suppressed and there is a reason it was called "underground". I remember when you had to "know" which places had a publication available and it was not out in plain sight. I can remember in cities with major newspapers they would get ordinances passed about who could have a newspaper distribution box strapped to a streetlight pole and it sure as hell was not the local "underground" paper that was telling the truth about McCarthy or Vietnam. I can remember when campus newspapers would often be pulled from circulation by the college administration.

I can remember having to sneak writings etc. Because if you got caught by people who had any authority, whether it was cops, city fathers or school officials, they could make your life hell and many times did. These things are not just some stories from a book about long ago. This was our lives. Do this stuff in a risky environment and you may well be beaten or worse. We should not think for one moment that they won't be like this again. I'm not saying we flinch or knuckle under but I am saying I think people have no idea how fast and how bad it can get to try to voice opinions that go against what the tyrants want.

It can be a matter of minutes rather than months. Think of it like now in the internet age when we have a tyrant who can make a "DOS attack" a strategy to be employed by a "Ministry of Truth" sort of operation. The analog version was in the '50's with suppression and harassment coupled with government "propaganda" films, planted interviews on TV and in print etc. When we see these old films and articles today we sort of laugh at how awful and obvious they were. But at the time people took this stuff as gospel and they behaved and acted accordingly.

[Ligyron]

133. I sure remember those times

There was tremendous pressure from both the government and society to "conform". Media was self censored, there were no "curse words" allowed in movies or television, no divorce, very little premarital sex and no birth control pills.

Then, something happened much of it crawling out from the "underground".

[moniss]

153. Yes indeed and a great movie from that time and

about those times is "No Down Payment" from 1957. It's about young couples and the intense pressure for the conformity and the "keeping up with the Joneses" pressure and the rat-race and ladder climbing and how it all tears at people and the traps it all sets. I will forewarn you that it is a movie from that time and so there is a depiction of domestic violence here and there. But it is a very underappreciated movie with Tony Randall, Joanne Woodward and more.

[Aussie105]

104. If only Kamala had done what Trump did.

Insult and demonise the opposition.

Make impossible claims on how life would be made better - like reversing inflation overnight, doubling your wage, getting all those millions of undocumented migrants out of the country, making importers pay huge tariffs, etc.

Deep down most people knew Trump was selling snake oil, but he gave them hope that their dreary lives would get better overnight.
An emotional appeal, not an appeal to reality based intelligence.
(A lot of people can't 'do' reality based intelligence, and those who can, assume others can too. Alas!)

Brexit is a good example of the reality versus the emotional appeal a political move can have.

[Silver Gaia]

107. THANK YOU! You are absolutely correct!

I've been teaching (preaching to?) college students for years now about algorithm bubbles and the role they play in the spread of misinformation, disinformation, and propaganda. In fact, I will be on that topic in about 3 weeks. Now I am inspired to step it up, find new research, and revamp my lectures. YOU are so right. Thank you for the reminder in the midst of my grief. I needed that.

[proud patriot]

113. What I keep hearing from trump voters

"trump won't outlaw gay marrage , my brother/friend/etc is gay and married trump would never do that"

I hear this on every single item , abortion, gay rights , veterans , social security, the Constitution
"trump won't do that"

the cognitive dissonance is just astounding to me . these voters ignored the warnings from friends and family . they didn't pay close enough attention and not really interested in politics .

my AZ 26 yr old pro choice female cousin voted for abortion rights and then voted for trump .

I am at a loss ..

I'm recharging my batteries for the battles ahead .

[Maggiemayhem]

132. My area (DMV) is receiving racist text messages

These messages refer to picking cotton and meeting a brown van at a plantation. Only sent to AA. FBI investigating. We also have had a gay male get jumped and beaten.I think most dems are hopelessly underinformed.

[Skittles]

115. how long before repukes crash the economy?

THAT usually gets the attention of even the most uninformed idiots.

[summer_in_TX]

116. Read a great thread by a Brit about the analogies to Brexit on Twitter today.

It gave me a degree of hope.

Link to tweet

Thread
Tom Bacon
@TomABacon
As a Brit, I've been watching the American election results with sorrow for my American friends. Some are comparing it to the Brexit vote here, imagining if we'd voted for Brexit twice. But here's the thing... in a sense, we did. And here are some lessons from it. 🧵

First, an explanation: The U.K. chose Brexit in a referendum in 2016. But Brexit did not become truly inevitable until 2019, when the country doubled down on this decision and gave Boris Johnson a massive 80+-seat parliamentary majority. /2

In context: our parliamentary system gives someone with an 80+-seat majority in parliament pretty much unlimited power. Their only real opposition comes from their own side. /3

But the Johnson government got almost nothing done. Why? Well, to be fair, partly it was due to unforeseen circumstances: a global pandemic. But it was also partly because of Johnson himself. /4

Johnson liked power in theory, but had no real interest in what to do with it other than serve his own interests. He ran Downing Street like an old Medieval court, where people vied for his patronage. /5

Policy agendas were pursued as long as one person was up, and then dropped as soon as they were down. Johnson's attention moved from one thing to another, lacking any real direction. /6

You can probably see the parallels here, and hopefully see why I'm drawing some of this out. Trump is Johnson multiplied by a factor of ten or more. Do NOT expect a coherent agenda. /7

I'm well aware of Project 2025 and the like. But here's the thing: Trump isn't interested in the Project 2025 agenda. He's interested in the Trump agenda. He doesn't want to be managed or controlled. /8

Did you see how the election changed tone over the last few weeks, when he got bored of being kept under control and in check. You really think he'll sign up to somebody else's agenda? Or at least... sign up to it for long? /9

Trump will run his White House like a Medieval court. He'll pursue an agenda for only so long, until he either loses focus... or somebody else catches his attention and he pursues their agenda instead. /10

Does this mean Trump's government will do no damage? No. But it does mean the damage it does will be scattershot, rather than the focused agenda seen in Project 2025. I don't know how far it'll get - I pray not far. /11

And there's a second factor to consider: events, dear boy, events. We have the misfortune of living in "interesting times." For Johnson, the unforeseen event was a global pandemic. What will Trump's events be? /12

And make no mistake: there WILL be events. There are people all over the world eager to take advantage of the opportunity they've been given now - a chance to cause yet more chaos. /13

Here in the UK, we saw what happens when a clown has turned government into a circus at a time when you need actual government. That, I'm afraid, is what America is about to experience too. /14

I don't know whether all this will give you relief or leave you even more stressed. But here's the thing to remember: Boris Johnson's government failed. It did so largely because of the character of the man in charge. /15

Likewise: My strong suspicion is that Donald Trump's government will fail. It will do so largely because of the character of the man in charge. /16

Don't expect to ever be able to say "I told you so" to Trump voters, incidentally. The goal isn't to be proved right; it's to win them over. "I told you so" causes people to dig in. So spend time listening and engaging. /17

Figure out how to WIN them, how to persuade them, how to play to their interests. Here in the U.K., Keir Starmer managed a remarkable feat in winning a strong majority through smart strategy. Do your own version. Engage. Persuade. Win. /18

In 2019, I was crushed. A British government with a parliamentary majority of 80+ should've been unassailable. The constitutional reforms the Tories were proposing should've cemented them in power for a decade more. /19

Likewise, right now, you feel crushed. Donald Trump and the Republican agenda seems unassailable. The constitutional reforms the Republicans are proposing have the potential to cement them in power for a long, long time. /20

But it's not over, because not all of it will happen. There will be a lot of damage, and it will take a very long time to repair the damage. Here, it'll probably take a decade or more. I'm afraid I suspect it'll take you longer still. /21

Don't give up. For now? My prayers are with America. I'm sorry for what you're about to go through, and I wish I could do something to help. Just know it's never too late - not in a democracy. /end

[Hermit-The-Prog]

117. The incremental, stealth takeover by oligarchs is now open and in its final race to the finish line.

A GOP Senate will confirm whatever monsters are appointed to be heads of cabinet agencies and will confirm whatever monsters are nominated to finish taking over the judiciary.

We've been conditioned to say, "Bullshit", every time they say, "Voter fraud", because it is bullshit. The distributed system is not really vulnerable to voter fraud. It has become vulnerable to election fraud, however. Couple all the means of distorting elections -- including media and voter suppression and all the abstraction layers of electronics since 2000 (Help America Vote) -- and only wave elections can overcome the cheats. Only the messages and the counters count.

[mahina]

120. On Saturday This American Life ran a segment called

Title the small thing that gives me a tiny glimmer of hope
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-american-life/id201671138?i=1000675545428
Prologue: Who’s trying to bridge the gap between Blue America and Red America? Ira gets a glimpse of one guy who might be able to do just that. (3 minutes)

•. Act One: A politically divided couple searches for a news source they both can trust. (26 minutes)
• Act Two: "June" is making a tactical decision about her vote this election. (13 minutes)
• Act Three: Frank Filocomo thinks people care too much about politics when it comes to dating. His dates don’t necessarily agree. (10 minutes)
Transcripts are available at thisamericanlife.org

[Roxi]

122. Why are we accepting the results?

My biggest question since election night:
WHY are we automatically accepting the results as legitimate?

We know they have a history of cheating. We know foreign governments have interfered in our elections, and we absolutely know they disrupted this one.

So why are we so willing to say this was a legitimate loss? Given the stakes, why are we rolling over without even trying to verify that every vote was properly counted?

It’s one thing to be civil and take the higher ground, but we know what they are going to do to our country and its citizens. Is that not even worth taking time to make sure this is what the majority of the country really wants?

[muriel_volestrangler]

124. All incumbents across the world have lost vote share. The Biden to Harris loss was one of the smallest.

Link to tweet

"And to clarify: this isn’t just the first time since WW2 that all incumbent parties in developed countries lost vote share.

It’s the first time since this data was first recorded in 1905. Essentially the first time in the history of democracy (universal suffrage began in 1894)."

His article seems unpaywalled at the moment - to me, anyway:

Democrats join 2024’s graveyard of incumbents

The reason I make these assertions is that the economic and geopolitical conditions of the past year or two have created arguably the most hostile environment in history for incumbent parties and politicians across the developed world.

From America’s Democrats to Britain’s Tories, Emmanuel’s Macron’s Ensemble coalition to Japan’s Liberal Democrats, even to Narendra Modi’s erstwhile dominant BJP, governing parties and leaders have undergone an unprecedented series of reversals this year.

The incumbents in every single one of the 10 major countries that have been tracked by the ParlGov global research project and held national elections in 2024 were given a kicking by voters. This is the first time this has ever happened in almost 120 years of records.

Ultimately voters don’t distinguish between unpleasant things that their leaders and governments have direct control over, and those that are international phenomena resulting from supply-side disruptions caused by a global pandemic or the warmongering of an ageing autocrat halfway across the world.

https://www.ft.com/content/e8ac09ea-c300-4249-af7d-109003afb893

[lostnfound]

125. "Algorithmic microtargeting". Yes. The microtargeting supports Inconsistent views and helps to dissuade real-life convos

This was an excellent piece you wrote.

I see it in friends and relatives who have been led down various corridors of doom, far removed from my own, even though we started in the same place.

[Ruby the Liberal]

128. Agreed. You will never convince me

that Idiocracy wasn't produced by time travelers trying to warn us about this all.

[MiHale]

129. When I worked construction...

I had a boss that said …”Sometimes it’s easier to tear it all out and start over then try to fix it for the thousandth time.”

[get the red out]

130. Kamala is a woman

THAT was the problem for a majority of men, even some "liberal" men I know of; race, religion, or immigration status of friends and loved ones didn't matter as much as gender. And add to that the "me too" movement, which pissed too many men off. All these uppity women, of all races, need to be gotten under control.

[FM123]

155. That could be it.

Maybe it wasn't that more guys wanted him than her - more guys wanted a HIM not a HER.

[Martin68]

139. If buyer's remorse doesn't set in over the next 4 years for a significant number of people who voted for Trump,

we are well and truly screwed.

[Efilroft Sul]

140. People here keep thinking we'll have free and fair elections that will be winnable in 2026 and 2028.

Get real. The other side isn't going to treat this as a second Trump term, but rather a permanent MAGA reign. You know, like one of those thousand-year reich kind of things.

We better start focusing on defense, survival, and protecting and hiding the vulnerable members of our population before Trump gets sworn in. It's going to get dark faster than many realize, and this forum's continued existence is not guaranteed. So we had better look into establishing some offline committees of correspondence to stay organized and informed.

[ratchiweenie]

144. Trump said it. "You'll never have to vote again".

All I know is my husband and I have credit card debt like lots of other people in America and we will have to do whatever we can to pay that down or off. Since we are retired and on SS it will not be easy but we do Ebay and will have to step that up. We really, really, really want to be in a good place financially in this new environment. I am so scared I can't even imagine what is coming down the pike. The rich are going to get so much richer and the poor are going to get ever so much poorer!!

[Efilroft Sul]

147. We're in for scary times, and the old rules -- the old laws -- won't necessarily be applicable any more.

Instead of wondering "Why did Harris lose?", we should instead be putting our efforts into "How do we not lose our lives after Trump takes over?" This Monday morning quarterbacking of an election defeat is a luxury we can no longer afford. The survival of people, knowledge, and ideals is in the balance.

[Felicita]

146. Excellent analysis

"Misinformation peddled on an industrial scale" definitely the main culprit.

[Festivito]

148. YES. We hit 1% with volunteers once in 6 months. They hit 90% twice a day -- at least.

The media won't say it. They want to believe they're effective.
They're not.
Mass distribution is not. DU is mass distribution. It's not.

Facts are where masses agree.
Facts don't matter in the face of repetition followed by more and more things being repeated. More things that can be kept in mind all at once.

Even when our best volunteers access someone's brain. That brain gets deluged again and again with more scary stuff.

We came to laser focused machine gun fight each carrying a single, albeit very nice looking, pocket knife.

[andym]

150. Mis and disinformation coupled with lack of perspective is huge. But this was a change election.

Mis and disinformation would work far less well if people had a sense of perspective on how the economy and the country really work.

There's a reason that Obama won twice with hope and change during times of economic uncertainty. Kamala ran on hope but allowed Trump to seize the mantle of being a change candidate when polls consistently reported that a large majority of Americans were economically anxious. In this view his volatile chaotic campaigning was a feature rather than a bug for a deciding portion of the electorate.

Kamala brought hope, but not hope and change. Obama's message was and is the way for Democrats to succeed and save the country. Trump will show everyone that not every change is for the best, but the USA and the world will suffer for this lesson.

[underpants]

152. A tech perspective. Great points. It seems like an application of the Facebook effect in 2016

That Trump campaign openly said that Facebook would decide the election. As I understand it (I don’t see ads on Facebook maybe because I’m on an Apple phone?) everyone got a pro-Trump ad and anti-Hillary ad no matter what they were looking at. Old “friends” spread the nonsense. In sales they say if you can get a product in front of someone 12-16 the chances of the buying or using it climb exponentially. Now it’s everywhere no matter how you access the internet.

[defacto7]

154. You're one smart guy.

Your answer is the best I've heard so far. A question remains, though. Does it really matter anymore? Time will tell.

[defacto7]

159. I need to add to that comment ...

maybe even answer my own question. I didn't mean to sound defeatist. Yes, it matters. It has to matter. Recognizing cause, effect and blame is only useful if it's in pursuit of change. Politics is only the edge of the global paradigm shift we are confronting. Your comment represents the facts most don't consider, and they are the technical foundation of the shift we will continue to experience from now on. There is no "the way it used to be" that matters; the past is irrelevant. It's a new and very precipitous cliff we're on as a country and as a species. We need to understand exactly the cause and effect in the now, not the past, to cut the trail ahead. Yes it matters.

[Ping Tung]

156. People almost always bleme the Executive branch for their troubles and complaints.

They turned against the nutter in 2020 because he was "in charge", "the boss", "the leader".

They turned against Biden (and Harris) for the same reasons when inflation hit, immigration was thought to be out of control, and Biden seemed to be becoming senile.

In 2020 and 2024 they voted against the current leaders they blamed for their troubles. Trump promised them change and advertised himself as a "Strong Leader". It worked on his cult and on enough gullible non-MAGAs to defeat the current scapegoats.

I also think that many people who didn't bother to vote thought that Kamala had it in her pocket and that she couldn't lose against the imbecile. See Hillary's loss for the same reasons.